Trans Teacher

Wow! Glorianny. Thank you for that unnecessary insight into your wardrobe.
You don’t wear shorts because your legs are a bit old looking. Why would that matter unless you think it would draw people’s attention to them?

Who are the people you feel women are not showing respect to in order to be given respect themselves?

It's very simple isn't it

Abolish gender norms

Stop sending the message to young people that objects and clothing have gender and that liking those things makes them "tomboys" or "effeminate" or any of the negative names used to place people in boxes.

Then if gender dysphoria still exists and people still want to change their sex organs because they feel their body should look differently, we know there is a reason this is happening and we can look into the best ways to support them

Oh dear Violet, if only it was so simple

I will need a deeper explanation than that Iam64

Glorianny

I've got skirts and dresses I like and trousers I like. It is amusing that people would think a man flashing his legs in shorts is more acceptable than a man wearing a quite respectable skirt. I don't wear shorts because my legs are a bit old looking. A man might feel his legs should be covered but like the coolness a skirt can give.

Has anyone mentioned him "flashing his legs"?

I was under the impression that no-one in fact knew what type of skirt he was wearing and I don' t think the OP has been back with any further information. Depending on the length of it, his legs might have only been visible from mid-calf down.

I didn't get the hunch that his legs were the problem. But I haven't read every single comment.

The abolition of gender norms is what many of us have been arguing for all along. If people (adults as well as children) could wear, do and 'live as' they please, without wanting to compel others to use changed pronouns and pretend that they had 'changed sex', there would be no need for men to be in women's spaces, no need for men in women's sport, or on female wards, in women's prisons, refuges and so on.

We could find vocabulary that suited everyone - men, women, transmen and transwomen seems sensible to me - but I wouldn't object to trans people using different terms, so long as it remained clear that they were of their biological sex.

Nobody would lose rights, as the only lost rights are those of women to single sex spaces, sports teams etc, and trans people would still have the extra rights they do under hate crime and equality legislation.

It's win/win, IMO, but every time we mention it we are shouted down.

I'm still confused about what 'being in the wrong gender' actually means though. I'm also confused as to why nobody is willing (or apparently able) to tell me, when the concept forms the basis of their determination to push women aside to allow men into our spaces.

I am one of the many of us who have argued against gender norms

But I cannot stop those... men and women alike... who perpetuate them

"gender" or "sex" we can only use the language given to us

They appear relatively interchangeable at times

I like clear words really which is why I will always say trans as a modifier, not to deny trans people the experience of being who they are but because they will always need the correct medical attention, there always needs to be transparency in dating and as things stand, women have protected spaces under the law.

But otherwise just their names do me

we are people who care about children

This!
Anything else is irrelevant.
Schools exist for children, for their education.

Not for teachers to express their individuality and preferences.

Callistemon21

^we are people who care about children^

This!
Anything else is irrelevant.
Schools exist for children, for their education.

Not for teachers to express their individuality and preferences.

But some people still don’t get that.

It's unbelievable, isn't it.
And very worrying.

VioletSky

"gender" or "sex" we can only use the language given to us

They appear relatively interchangeable at times

I like clear words really which is why I will always say trans as a modifier, not to deny trans people the experience of being who they are but because they will always need the correct medical attention, there always needs to be transparency in dating and as things stand, women have protected spaces under the law.

But otherwise just their names do me

I don't think sex and gender are interchangeable, although I think there has been a drive to make them appear so, so that people become confused and are more easily taken in.

I have no desire to deny anyone anything either, and I agree that it has to be clear that a transwoman is distinct from a woman, and the vocabulary has to make that obvious. If not, we get back into TWAW territory, and that's where the problems start.

I also agree that ideally just using names is fine - but it is the trans people themselves who insist on affirmation of their desired 'gender status'. Many people (like me) refuse to declare pronouns, as we see them as irrelevant.

The problem, when it comes to the topic of this thread, is that whether you, I or anyone else wants to abolish gender norms, they are now inextricably linked with 'trans issues', so in schools, where there are already so many confusing messages for children, a man in a skirt is not (as has been said many times on this thread) a neutral act, and has to be seen in that context. I don't see how that can be denied.

Dickens

Glorianny

I've got skirts and dresses I like and trousers I like. It is amusing that people would think a man flashing his legs in shorts is more acceptable than a man wearing a quite respectable skirt. I don't wear shorts because my legs are a bit old looking. A man might feel his legs should be covered but like the coolness a skirt can give.

Has anyone mentioned him "flashing his legs"?

I was under the impression that no-one in fact knew what type of skirt he was wearing and I don' t think the OP has been back with any further information. Depending on the length of it, his legs might have only been visible from mid-calf down.

I didn't get the hunch that his legs were the problem. But I haven't read every single comment.

The point is Dickens that you don't know. But people are prepared to say shorts are acceptable but a skirt isn't. I;ve seen some pretty revealing shorts and some very modest skirts. The sheer illogicality of claiming one garment is acceptable but the other is linked with sexual fantasies and is worn for sexual gratification is ludicrous.
The legs issues is just an example of why someone might prefer a skirt to shorts.

VioletSky

It's very simple isn't it

Abolish gender norms

Stop sending the message to young people that objects and clothing have gender and that liking those things makes them "tomboys" or "effeminate" or any of the negative names used to place people in boxes.

Then if gender dysphoria still exists and people still want to change their sex organs because they feel their body should look differently, we know there is a reason this is happening and we can look into the best ways to support them

It's very simple isn't it
Abolish gender norms

There is already a move away from that ideology. Little girls are not now automatically assumed to be 'pink princesses' nor boys 'superman'. But it's more complex than that.

What is more rationally 'simple' is to acknowledge that children go through normal identity and developmental problems during adolescence and to pause the rush to potentially irreversible treatment for 'gender-dysphoria' when that child might well be going through a transient stage in development.

Glorianny

Dickens

Glorianny

I've got skirts and dresses I like and trousers I like. It is amusing that people would think a man flashing his legs in shorts is more acceptable than a man wearing a quite respectable skirt. I don't wear shorts because my legs are a bit old looking. A man might feel his legs should be covered but like the coolness a skirt can give.

Has anyone mentioned him "flashing his legs"?

I was under the impression that no-one in fact knew what type of skirt he was wearing and I don' t think the OP has been back with any further information. Depending on the length of it, his legs might have only been visible from mid-calf down.

I didn't get the hunch that his legs were the problem. But I haven't read every single comment.

The point is Dickens that you don't know. But people are prepared to say shorts are acceptable but a skirt isn't. I;ve seen some pretty revealing shorts and some very modest skirts. The sheer illogicality of claiming one garment is acceptable but the other is linked with sexual fantasies and is worn for sexual gratification is ludicrous.
The legs issues is just an example of why someone might prefer a skirt to shorts.

The sheer illogicality of claiming one garment is acceptable but the other is linked with sexual fantasies and is worn for sexual gratification is ludicrous.

It is - and that's why I have not made that claim. Others may have (as I said I haven't read all the comments).

My point has always been that the man is making a statement - not that he is indulging in sexual fantasies in a classroom full of children.

I believe he has an agenda and is drawing attention to it, and himself, in an environment where his focus should be entirely on the children.

That's quite different from what you are suggesting.

Doodledog

I'm still confused about what 'being in the wrong gender' actually means though. I'm also confused as to why nobody is willing (or apparently able) to tell me, when the concept forms the basis of their determination to push women aside to allow men into our spaces.

How did women's spaces get into this it's a discussion about a teacher wearing a skirt.
It seems very odd to me that you would have such set views on trans women and not be aware of what being in the wrong gender means. Either you refuse to acknowledge the real life experiences of people or you have drawn a conclusion without doing adequate research.
Why you expect someone on GN to explain it to you I have no idea. There's. plenty of information from recognised psychology bodies on line. Just Google it.

doodledog you just explained to me what I actually already said

I don't know what you are talking about as "happening in schools" because I don't see any evidence of it myself in my school or my children's schools.

A skirt is not an example of it either, in fact a man wearing a skirt is the opposite

The sheer illogicality that one garment is acceptable and another is worn for sexual gratification and linked with sexual fantasies is ludicrous

That's not quite what I said either.

But why is it ludicrous?

VioletSky
"gender" or "sex" we can only use the language given to us

They appear relatively interchangeable at times

Only to those people who want to conflate the two words in order to enable some people to say they are the opposite sex to what they actually are, without using the identifier.
Or to some people who try to point out that it’s wrong to say no one can change sex and we should accept that a TIM feels he is the opposite sex and allow him to take female rights on that basis.

That’s when the use of gender creeps in.

Thank you for ensuring I read the "some people" as the rude way doodledog doesn't like Mollygo with the helpful highlighting

Now I know I need not dignify you with an answer

VioletSky

I am one of the many of us who have argued against gender norms

Vs I’m so sorry, I’ve never noticed that, but now I’m interested enough to research your claim, rather than asking you to provide evidence.

Cool

Have fun with that

VioletSky

doodledog you just explained to me what I actually already said

I don't know what you are talking about as "happening in schools" because I don't see any evidence of it myself in my school or my children's schools.

A skirt is not an example of it either, in fact a man wearing a skirt is the opposite

I was trying to show that I agreed with a lot of what you were saying but you are so determined to be disagreeable that you’ve turned that into an attack.

I really despair at times.

VioletSky

Thank you for ensuring I read the "some people" as the rude way doodledog doesn't like Mollygo with the helpful highlighting

Now I know I need not dignify you with an answer

What?