How many dead Palestinians ....

You see what I mean Lilygran - did you have to make that comment about closed minds - regardless of whom you were aiming it at?

Interesting article however

mishap I don't think the debate has been particularly "heated", given what is being discussed - it's hardly a light hearted subject. People have expressed strong and differing opinions, but I don't recall anyone (of whatever opinion) being unpleasant to another poster.

granjura Thanks for you post re the Transfer Agreement - I hadn't heard of it either. I did a search and watched an early video of an interview with Edwin Black. I wasn't quite sure what his opinion was as to the morality of powerful Zionists negotiating with Hitler so as to facilitate the transfer of certain Jewish people and their money to Palestine, as the first steps towards creating a Zionist state. I got the impression (maybe wrongly) that he thought that it was a necessary evil. But by negotiating with Hitler, rather than supporting the proposed boycott of German goods, the Zionists colluded with - and made life easier for - Hitler. Presumably the outlook for those who could not afford to uproot and travel to Palestine was not a consideration.

Joan I couldn't read the link you provided.

Eleothan I would regard some of the remarks as being unkind and they are not what I am used to in conversation with friends on however serious and difficult a topic.

And I do think that that sort of unpleasant feeling in human conversation is part of what makes these international/inter-religion conflicts happen. They are just macro manifestations of the smaller discourtesies that occur.

I have no problem with the firmly expressed views - that is what debate is about; but suggesting that someone is not bright enough to understand what you have posted seems unkind to me.

I have no religious affiliation, but, if asked what I believe in, I would say kindness above all else.

I do admit to being unable to contribute anything to this debate, as the whole issue of the conflict in the middle east is so complex and so resistant to solution. Sadly the intermittent fearsome spats, where innocent people are killed, seem to be set on their tracks and immovable. Does anyone have a solution? I fear not. We may get brief ceasefires and moments when people can draw breath; but the lives of those caught up in this dreadful situation will continue to be unbearable.

Part of the problem lies with decisions taken by Britain and others earlier last century - just as with India/Pakistan and the slaughter that followed there. This is why I am so averse to interfering in others' cultures - we never seem to learn this lesson - if we divide land up and tell people where they should be living and who with and how they should live, we are tampering in very dangerous territory. I have no idea how the pieces might now be picked up and reassembled to stop this tragic situation. It is beyond sad.

One of the reasons I think it is helpful to have the discussions and debates on this thread is that so many of us do feel so helpless and know there isn't any easy solution - or indeed any solution at all probably and it helps to talk it over with others. I've also found the MN threads incredibly informative - now there you could use the term 'heated' debate. I don't think anyone has said that someone is not bright enough to understand what has been said. But enough of that - I think Mishaps final paragraph illustrates exactly why the historical dimension is so important to understanding do many present day conflicts. The sad thing is that we don't learn- what's that quote - something about those who do not learn from history being doomed to repeat it?

Certainly a good reason to make history a compulsory subject to A'Level for those who go into post 16 Ed- to get more insight about the mistakes of the past, and of now.

Eloethan- I must admit I had never heard of the Transfer Agreement, and found the interview with Edwin Black- at first, I just could not believe what I was hearing- even his parents, who escaped a concentration camp- disowned him at first after he had done all the research- as it was just too painful for them to even fathom. I hope others will do as you did and Google this- as it is just mind blowing.

This conflict has been going on for more than 2000 years, different countries over the years have been involved, making treaties, bargaining and warring with each other. What really scares me is the fact the Israelis believe that God gave them that land and to what extent they will go to, to keep it

youtu.be/-Iyj6UPCChA

truly shocking

One way to deal with feelings of helplessness & horror is to donate to a charity like Medical aid for Palestine Www.map-uk.org. Penstemmon may have others that can be recommended. Thank you for telling us your family story - it makes what people suffered more real. It must be very harrowing for your & your family to know what's happening now as it has been over th epast years too when it was rarely reported.

Israel has had since 1967 to do something positive, like giving back land. They haven't. Like someone else has suggested, I think that if that had been done it may have prevented many other conflicts in the region. I had hopes that things might change when Rabin was elected but then the right wing extremist shot him.

GTwice if it's simplistic to say both sides are equally to blame, then I hold my hands up. If it's simplistic to say Gazans are caught in the middle I also hold my hands up to that too.
If the reason I tried to look at both sides of the issue is that I felt it was getting rather one-sided on this thread, then I'll admit to that too.

But Aka how can they be 'equally to blame' if one side is the clear illegal occupier?

So you think Hamas is completely within its rights to act the way it has and does Granjura?

If this thread is one sided , I think it's because it's very representative of public opinion at the moment . And, I agree with GJ, both sides are not equally to blame. Faults on both sides yes.

I think that MAP is a good charity to give to if people want to donate. I do so regularly and also support smaller local charities for the blind ( my great grandfather became blind as did my grandmother).

Obviously I see it strongly from the Palestinian viewpoint and you have to understand that the infrastructure has been deliberately & steadily eroded over time, to not only reduce Palestinian land, but also to the point that Israel controls most things in Gaza (water/electricity etc) as well as controlling access to the West Bank. I see that the ' attacks' on Israel by Palestinians as understandable resistance against the powerful occupiers. I would prefer a negotiated solution.

The lack if infrastructure also includes poor/non existent Palestinian media /PR which conversely oozes out of Israel and promotes their perception of the situation to the world. Now the world is anti-Islamic Israel is laughing as it knows that most governments will be reluctant to offer support to a Muslim group/country.

There is also the erosion and denial of Palestinian culture which is a strategy to undermine world perception of the people to make them appear primitive and in need of 'Western' management.

The US is made up of almost half of what was Mexico, which they annexed (and treat as their own) in the 1840s, after eating up all of Texas und California which was also Mexican, then they of all peoples are not going to wave a flag with the slogan ''Everyone back to their own borders.'' when they negotiate with Israel ?
Did anyone hear the radio interview with the Israeli journalist living in Israel, who had taken a liberal stand on the present conflict? The family house had been attacked, car destroyed, was receiving death threats, and the family could no longer leave the house?

I hope that contributors and readers will find this, from The Conversation, of interest:

Nurit Peled-Elhanan
Lecturer, School of Education at Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

https://theconversation.com/as-a-sakharov-laureate-and-a-mother-i-call-on-the-eu-to-help-save-palestinians-and-israel-29597?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1810&utm_content=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1810+CID_04a6aba57068c28c63fccd6c8f2e54f6&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Nurit%20Peled-Elhanan

That's two good links to the conversation now on this thread - hadn't heard of it before. Thanks to both of you

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation_(website)

Background info on the website

Many thank for that Granny 2X
I didn't know it was Australian as well, all I'd seen is :

The Conversation
is funded by the following universities: Aberdeen, Birmingham, Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, City, Durham, Glasgow Caledonian, Goldsmiths, Lancaster, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham, The Open University, Queen's University Belfast, Salford, Sheffield, Surrey, UCL and Warwick.

It also receives funding from:
Hefce, Hefcw, SAGE, SFC, RCUK, The Nuffield Foundation, The Ogden Trust, The Wellcome Trust, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation and The Alliance for Useful Evidence

Another balanced article that tries to explain the complexity of the issues - how many people on GN will bother to read it because they already know what they want to know? www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

Lilygran I didn't think the article was balanced. I thought it was definitely pro Israeli but in a subtle way. Or at least it attempted to minimise what the Israelis are doing.

If you believe that the Israelis are wholly in the wrong and Hamas composed entirely of victims, of course it will seem to be 'minimising' what the Israelis are doing.

What hope for peace if we grans can't at least try to see the need to work from where we are now. The history has happened, I see faults on both sides, Hamas and the Israeli government. In the middle of it are innocent members of both populations. The similarity with Northern Ireland has been well made. The example set by Nelson Mandela was brave and purposeful. That's whats needed here.

Who says 'we grans' can't see the need to work from where we are now? Taking a look back at the reasons for conflict (on both sides) in the middle east is important to understand why there is more escalation.