How many dead Palestinians ....

The influence of Zionism stretches into the UK Tory party via political donations and to a much greater extent political donations to political parties in the USA. So neither government are going to stand up to the Zionists conviction that they are both chosen people with a right to that land, the whole of it, and victims. Under these circumstances I think we all feel utterly powerless.

Of course those trying to solve this problem need to "work from where we are now", but having an awareness of what has brought everyone to this situation can only help.

When at work as a SW, I was often confronted with people behaving in unacceptable ways, and always had to ask myself what had gone before to create the current situation, before jumping to conclusions and judgments - this international situation is no different. Knowing the background was always a help to finding a solution.

Lilygran The article is blatantly pro-Israeli. A couple of paragraphs at the end which represent a Palestinian perspective do not restore balance to a very unbalanced commentary.

Muslims may well "side" with Muslims and Jews with Jews, but there are many other non-Muslim and non-Jewish people (and some Jewish people)who feel very strongly that the Palestinians have been treated appallingly since having their land and homes taken from them many decades ago.

To compare the Israel/Palestine situation with that of Syria, Iraq, etc., etc. is misleading. What is happening in those countries is akin to civil war arising from differing religious allegiances. These countries have not had their land seized from them, been hemmed into an increasingly smaller and smaller densely populated strip of land whose borders are controlled by someone else, or been subject to different laws from those that rule them, etc. etc.

As to whether Hamas would still continue their actions even if they achieved everything they wanted, it may well be the case that some members of Hamas would carry on - as a small minority in Ireland still rails against the peace process and commits isolated acts of terrorism. However, I believe that the majority would want a peacefully negotiated - but just - resolution of their grievances.

If Hamas uses civilians as human shields, that is despicable but it still doesn't take away from the basic injustice perpetrated against the Palestinian people on a day-to-day basis.

As to why Israel would want to target citizens - they do it because they want to show ordinary Palestinians what will happen if they continue to resist Israeli might by supporting Hamas. They know they can do it with virtual impunity as the UN has shown itself to be powerless in making them abide by countless resolutions. They are the fourth most heavily militarised country in the world and the sophisticated weaponry and defence shields provided to them by the US means that they can bomb and destroy with virtually no risk to their own civilian population.

As for "working from where we are" - of course, to some degree that has to happen. The state of Israel cannot just be dismantled even if some of us think that Europe and the US should never have evaded their own responsibilities by allowing the requisition of someone else's land and the continued domination over the displaced original occupiers.

Nelson Mandela was conciliatory but not to the extent that everything stayed the same. Although the progress for non-white people in South Africa is not as great as it should be, black people are not second class citizens under the law and are not now subject to measures under apartheid that look very similar to what Palestinians are still being subjected to.

This discussion demonstrates how hard it is to find truly objective information.

Eloethan
A magnificent run of contributions, if I may make zo bold.
I had read the Huff-Post article, and many of the Comments, before reading the 1st of your comments.
I was most disappointed with Mr Ali A. Rizvi's article , and the many trivialities in the Comments section added to the poor quality of the presentation.
Your analysis is almost congruent with mine, tho' you leave out one very, very frightening fact :
Israel has nuclear 'bombs'.
Sitting on the latest version of their Jericho ballistic missile system
Both components having been developed with apartheid South Africa, since :
"Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples." [1976 Joint Govt statement, reported in the Guardian ]

lilygran in what way would members of Hamas not be victims? Every Palestinian is a victim of the creation of the State of Israel as every European Jew became the victim of Nazi Germany. As we rightly do not forget the horror of the Nazi cleansing of Jews, gypsies , communists and homosexuals so the Palestinian people cannot forget the Nakba.

I may support the Palestinians but I am not a holocaust denier. I just regret that the rest of the western world still feels so guilty about the impact of Nazism on the Jewish people it cannot act to stop the Zionists now as thy try to annihilate Palestinians.

I hear that the only power station in Gaza has now been bombed to rubble - again.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

I didn't think many of the comments on the site of lilygrans linked article were particularly enlightening but I did think one of the links someone provided - to the above Independent article - makes interesting reading.

The Independent article is chilling but I'm pleased I read it.

I don't think Israeli politicians are the only ones who deliberately manipulate public opinion through carefully chosen words.

Depressingly, I suspect the tactic works with many people.

Eloethan
Thank you for your link to the Indy's article - shocking, but hardly surprising,. It confirmed zo many of the suspicions I have had for years. One tactic which is not mentioned is the one used frequently by Mr Regev, and others,
''We are holding an inquiry into this alleged incident.''
These come thick und faster, but NEVER the 'results (?)'.
Much has been made over of the yars over Muslims 'celebrating' the death, killing, assassination, or murder of perceived invaders. Now we see the other side of the coin via your Indie link und der .....Times of Israel, no less.

>>>A video has emerged showing far-right Israeli protesters celebrating the death of children in Gaza in Tel Aviv this weekend......chanting
“there is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza” in Hebrew, according to the ......
Times of Israel. <<<

i100.independent.co.uk/article/heres-farright-israelis-celebrating-the-death-of-children-in-gaza--x1bRj8d7Mx

I do think that the past is relevant but that it cannot be changed, as someone said would we go back to pre partition in India etc? Of course not and I agree with whoever said we should be looking forward rather than back. The history only gives context but going over it again and again is not going to solve a thing. As in family disputes nothing is achieved by going over and over old grudges. Imo it is all about the future.

Hello Nonnie
Might it be suggested that if you ever go to Liverpool you refrain from two things :
Openly carrying a copy of the Sun newspaper(?)
Voicing your opinion about '' going over it again and again is not going to solve a thing. nothing is achieved by going over and over old grudges. Imo it is all about the future.''
Here's a reminder why: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28555585

I just regret that the rest of the western world still feels so guilty about the impact of Nazism on the Jewish people it cannot act to stop the Zionists now as thy try to annihilate Palestinians. Well said, and more eloquently and succinctly than I could

Yes, the Hillsborough disaster is something that confirms the need to challenge authority. The situation isn't really compatible with what's happening in Gaza/Israel though imo.
The comment in my earlier post that we have to start where we are now, was not mean to say the history is irrelevant. We all have a responsibility to learn from our history, but the recent wars the UK have been involved with suggest our political leaders haven't learned from our own history, or those of the countries we've invaded over the years.
The history of the region under discussion is complex,and it won't help if those involved became ever more intractable.

The two are incomparable !

IMO

penstemmon I had never heard the word Nakba before, I have just been reading about it. I am horrified as to what has been done and is still being done to the Palestinian people. I like so many others do not know what the answer is, and how the world can stand by and watch this happen. I posted earlier I fear as to what extend the Israelis will go to make sure they have "The Promised Land"

Iam' & Nonu
My comment was directed at the principle being promoted by Nonnie, and it should have been obvious, I thought, that comparisons between items was not intended, nur implied.
I, do not hold the deaths of 98, and 800 persons injured AT Hillsborough lightly, nor the consequential suicides, self harm, family breakdowns, mental health problems ...
The filth printed by the Sun newspaper(?) along mit the lies and coverups were not a call to 'challenge' - they were a punch in the face with a brick fur the damaged survivors.
''Twenty three years and 23 hours we've waited, and never forgotten.'' was the salute when the Hillsborough Independent Panel findings were finally made public
UK has some Statutes of Limitations, and some (misguided) people are seeking to have time limits set on paedophilia, murder, war crimes and rape prosecutions.
Do you both support those moves in the spirit of '' it is all about the future.'' ?
Thank you

newist I am glad you took the time to read up. Thanks. If more people begin to learn a little more about the history they would have a better understanding of the present.

There are some good books that help to paint a picture of the Palestinian situation.. 'Mornings in Jenin' by Susan Abuwalha (fiction) is worth a read. 'In Search of Fatima:a Palestinian Story' by Ghada Karmi (autobiography/ account) is another.

I've not been following this thread for a couple of days but this article is looking at the issue from both 'sides' and is worth a read

aka Lilygran has already provided a link to this article. Not everybody thought it was well balanced.

Thanks Eloethan it was too late last night to read through the thread and see what had been posted since I was last in it.

I thought it addressed the OP's query about numbers of dead quite clearly. I'm shocked that the carnage in Syria and Northern Iraq seems to have taken a back seat in the media. Perhaps there's only so much death and destruction we can absorb, though the report that Isis intends all females in their new state to undergo FGM did disgust me.

The BBC news coverage last night was horrific - those poor poor frightened and injured children - no political aim can justify this.

They then interviewed a prosperous-looking Israeli man who regarded the injured children as nothing more than unfortunate, and who fully supported more attacks.

How can anyone find a way through this when common humanity has been switched off?

Never thought I'd say this but I'm beginning to sympathise with Dawkins!

I think that you will find that the FGM/Isis issue has been discredited though I agree how the news updates for those areas have taken a lower profile. There was a big article in the Guardian or Observer at the weekend re Syria .