Triple lock

Pensions are a lottery anyway. My husband paid in all his working life until he was made disabled and then was given NI allowances for not being able to work.
He died six months after reaching state pension age.
I have been given extra pension because he died, but have £45 a week deducted because of his serps. I end up no better off, as the DWP has not been able to track down where the serps was paid!
A lottery in which the DWP wins by changing the rules for all of us.

daphne You may well be right about there not being direct blame but I have certainly heard some young people on TV and radio saying it's unfair that pensioners are getting preferential treatment - and it's a view that has gained prominence over the last couple of years.

It certainly appears that pensioners tend to vote in their own interests, but is that any different from any other group? Whilst it is true that fewer young people vote than older people, they do demonstrate and those demonstrations often relate to matters that relate to their own situation - tuition fees, etc.

The state pension does not, in my view, provide enough for a reasonably comfortable life. For those who have no, or only a small, occupational pension and who do not own their homes as a source of security for a loan, life on a state pension must be fairly cheerless.

I realise that there are older people who are very comfortably off but, in that case, they are subject to taxation like anyone else aren't they?

Someone said exactly that on QT just now, Eloethan.
I was surprised to hear Damien Green sticking up for pensioners.

I know that Eloethan. I don't own my own home and I still think the triple lock is wrong.

I'm still one of the "young ones". If I were claiming JSA, I'd be expected to live on less than half what the poorest single pensioners receive. That's even less than miserable.

Then, if I were to find a job, I'd have to pay tax to support the triple lock for a pension I'd have to pay more for and receive less.

Pensioners vote Tory. Damien Green's not stupid.

I know that Eloethan. I don't own my own home and I still think the triple lock is wrong.

I'm still one of the "young ones". If I were claiming JSA, I'd be expected to live on less than half what the poorest single pensioners receive. That's even less than miserable.

Then, if I were to find a job, I'd have to pay tax to support the triple lock for a pension I'd have to pay more for and receive less.

Pensioners vote Tory. Damien Green's not stupid.

"In England you can get a bus pass for free travel when you reach the female State Pension age, whether you're a man or a woman. If you live in London, you can travel free on buses, tubes and other transport when you're 60, but only within London. In Wales you can get a bus pass when you reach 60."
The above is pasted directly from the government website. I was born towards the end of 1953 so I won't get my bus pass until I reach pensionable age in November of this year - if they still exist after this election. There are no subsidies for transport in my area and a single fare to the nearest big shopping centre costs £6.50; the single fare to the G.P. surgery, just over a mile away, costs £2.30. For many of the local elderly population the free bus pass is not a luxury, but a necessity.

They might be subject to taxation, but not NICs, which raises almost as much for the Treasury as income tax. Governments keep headline income taxes low and raise NICs at the same time, but they rarely make the headines. The poorest pay more in NICs than they do in tax.

Sorry, It's about time pensioners as group stopped being sheltered from austerity.

grannyactivist You're not a pensioner. That's why you pay. If you'd been a little older, you could have had a bus pass by now. It's yet another benefit Waspi women (and men) have lost.

grannyactivist You're not a pensioner. That's why you pay. If you'd been a little older, you could have had a bus pass by now. It's yet another benefit Waspi women (and men) have lost.

I was born in April 1955 and won't get a buss pass until April 2021.

daphne I agree that JSA is far too low but why is that the fault of pensioners, many of whom are not that comfortable either? Why, for instance, did the government prioritise raising the already generous threshold for inheritance tax whilst making swingeing cuts that affected the poorest?

The majority of people on JSA will have the opportunity to get back to work, some within only a few weeks of becoming unemployed. Many pensioners are unable to obtain or are not fit enough to take on further employment to boost their income and so have to live out the rest of their days on what might be a fairly pitiful amount.

I realise that wages have stagnated for some time but, again, that is not the fault of pensioners.

What I do find annoying is pensioners who play the same game - blaming young people for being irresponsible and spendthrift and not recognising that they are in a very different situation now than young people were in during the 60s and 70s.

I am a pensioner and am not sheltered from austerity.
My private pension is fixed and small, and my state pension rises do not cover my rises in utilities and council tax.
Pensioners eat as well, and food prices go up for pensioners just as much as the working population.

Why do you want pensions to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator?
Pay should rise to equal pensions, not pension rises be cut.
Why are you not criticising the fact that MPs have a five times bigger annual pay rise than pensioners?
My pay rise this year is less than £200. An MPs is over £1000.
I am surprised at you using austerity as a stick to beat pensioners with. As Damien Green said on QT, everyone who complains about the amount pensioners get will become a pensioner sooner or later.
What the government decides to do is not the pensioner's fault. Stop blaming; start fighting.

Crossed posts, Eloethan.

I haven't time to read your posts atm daphnedill but I will try to later as there does seem to be an anomaly with women's pensions which is not right.

However, I would just like to say that I was brought up with the mantra that 'Two wrongs don't make a right' and just because JSA is too low does not mean that pensions are too generous. As someone posted up-thread, anyone in receipt of generous private pensions in addition to the State Pension will be paying tax at the normal rate, some at the higher rate I suppose; there is no longer an additional personal allowance either.

theconversation.com/why-the-pensions-triple-lock-has-become-a-key-general-election-issue-76816

The figures for pensioners weekly income can be very misleading, especially if they live in rented property as if you are on Pension credit you are also entitled to Housing Benefit and Council tax benefit.

Estimated average rent paid by retired people varies between £100 to £300 a week and average Council tax for a band C property averages at £25 a week. A retired person in a rented band C property pays between £125 - £325 a week in rent and council tax and can probably get £100 - £250 of this back in HB and CTB.

So the true income of many Pension Credit pensioners goes as follows: £155.60(PC) + £100 - £250(HB&CTB, estimated) = £255.60 - £405.60 a week. I am not suggesting that this is riches, but many families would love to have over £100 a week left in their bank accounts after paying rent and rates.

If you are on pension credit and own your home then you get nowhere near as much.

www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/30/poorest-pensioners-double-whammy-triple-lock

One way to solve the problem.

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/27/uk-state-pension-rich-oecd

I can't imagine Theresa May doing it, though.

If pensioners like Rigby feel they are getting too much they didn't have to apply for the State Pension. The only pension I get is the State Pension and as I am self employed have some extra income. After 40 years NI contributions and paying extra for many years I now get a little over £150 per week State Pension. 2.5% rise which is what everyone is screaming against and waging generational wars is about £3 a week. well well. That is keeping the country poor I don't think. Means testing is very costly and often means poor uptake by the most needy. Pension credit is a 'benefit' and automatically enables receiver into many other benefits - no council tax - free dental etc. The State Pension is paid for by historical contributions, it is not a welfare benefit. Pension Credit is. People who have trusted the pension and paid for it over many years deserve it without feeling it is a handout. I happen to know a few people who have not paid their NI and they immediately get Pension Credit to top them up to full pension with all the other unquestioned benefits. Though as Claimants they are not free to earn other income etc without accounting for it to the authorities or risk accusations of fraud. So think on Rigby.

Good point, grannygranby.
The government actually encourages you to postpone taking your state pension.

You're right grannygranby, people of pension age don't have to apply for their state pension; if they do they could return their fuel allowance or give it to charity if they wish, do not have to apply for a bus pass and can offer to pay the tv licence after 75 too.

No-one is forcing people to accept all these things that they have paid in for over their working lives.

DH's private pension forecast seemed quite reasonable until they told him just as he retired that they had made a mistake and failed to apply GMP which is apparently made up by SERPS. So his private pension is one quarter less than we had anticipated.
Give with one hand, take it away with another!

I wonder if daphnedill may change her tune when she is in receipt of the State Pension.

I think it may come Jen. The OECD seems to have picked up on:

Pearson said Britain’s pension system was among the least generous of the OECD’s 35 member countries. The basic state pension is worth £6,360 a year, and the full new state pension introduced in 2016 is worth £8,297 a year.
“The UK pension is pretty low,” he said.

Keeping pensioners in poverty is really not good for the country. I know some on here think an argument about relative poverty solves the problems ('I can live in a hole in the road and licking the back of a stamp from time to time', stuff) but it really isn't. The cost of benefits (other than the State Pension)to pensioners and the take-up should be made known as they depress the economy as does having a such a low pension in the first place.

As I understand it the new maximum state pension is £155.50 a werk and there is no top up - this replaces lower pensions which could be topped up to this level with pension credit.
For a single person it is difficult to live on this and run a car - yes they have a bus pass, but you are very lucky if there is a bus that goes to all the places you may need to go to eg doctor, dentist, friends, relatives. You may have to live on this income for 20 years, and if you have no other income, that means no holidays and limited new clothes.
I think it was better to have a lower basic pension and top it up for those without private pensions - which are more likely to be women who worked part time when their children were young and maybe looked after parents or parents in law.
If you own your house you need to pay out for repairs too, and the pension certainly doesn't cover that. The only option is to cash in on the equity which, with compound interest, may mean that when you die there is no value left in it.

My parents went without as my DF paid extra into a private pension which would also provide for my DM. It paid off handsomely in the end but they did go without quite a lot. No holidays abroad, very occasional meals out. They worked their way up to a nice house and then downsized to raise cash when they got older. Would it have been fair to have docked their state pension to pay out to those who couldn't or hadn't saved at all?

We did the same, although not so strictly, virtually no meals out - certainly not in good restaurants - few new clothes and only camping holidays. So we are now comfortably off in our little house with money put by for repairs. We have good holidays to exciting places, but I still have very few new clothes and we seldom eat out (Last week was the second meal in a restaurant this year.) We do consider ourselves to be very fortunate and my Christmas money from the government went on goodies for the local food bank.

I watch families eating out obviously as something they do frequently, see people wandering around the shops with bags and wonder how they can afford it. My DD2 works in a fashion store and says women come in to change items or buy new because a seam has come undone or a button fallen off. It's a different world and I do worry how the next generation will cope with being retired.

The new basic SP is currently £159.55 and the old one is £122.30. Both these are currently triple locked.

Pension Credit, which you will get if this is your only income is the old SP, or less than the full new SP with no other income, tops up to £159.35. As you can see there is already a small gap and the Pension Credit is not triple locked so the gap is likely to increase.

In both cases you will be able to claim other benefits if this is your only income.