People who menstruate

You didnt dont worry, we just both feel strongly about this and that's ok. It's important to keep talking although I think to be fair we have done our bit on that

Much too much, I'm in bed with kidney trouble and an infection that won't shift, that's my excuse anyway lol

I spent two days a couple of weeks thrashing this back and forth with trisher. I lost hours of work that I had to make up . Hope you feel better soon.

I'm glad there is no hard feelings though galaxy I've definitely learnt a lot from it all

I've just noticed I missed a few things I want to address.

Triggers follow (sexual abuse)

I haven't been directly assaulted by a woman but I have experienced women who either directly allowed a male family member to abuse child me knowing it was happening and another female family member (my mum) who talked me out of any kind of justice or support saying that people would see me as damaged goods if I told anyone.

The female PE teached from my school left after allegations from female children which I am not aware of what the outcome was because I was also a child. Nothing physical happened to me but I remember her staring and feeling uncomfortable.

Also gay people still face prejudice and people still believe their sexuality is a choice but obviously huge steps have been made in the right direction.

Galaxy @ 23.29 "I think you can solve toilets in a heartbeat. You provide unisex and single sex." "It's easy."

Starblaze @ 23.34 "Why would we need both? If they are next door to each other anyway"

Starblaze @ 11.24 Show me where I said that women can't have single sex spaces and I will address it.

There's a contradiction here? Which is the correct one please?

Suziewoozie your post @ 11.31 is spot on.

So if there are two toilets next to each other one unisex, one for women who is going to stand at the door and check who uses the women's toilet? And how will they decide who is entitled to use it? I really don't see the point of having unenforceable regulations.

So what's the alternative, no regulations because they might not be enforceable?

At the risk of going Off Piste, in one building I worked at we had more women than men in our teams. The managers decided the toilet queue issue was best resolved by what they called unisex toilets. This meant the women used what had been the men's toilet on the top floor, as well as the 'women's toilet' on the ground floor.
It took a week before rebellion broke out amongst the women. They refused to share the traditional men's toilet, or to allow men to use the women's toilet any more. Complaints about puddles on the floor, stinky smells, paper towels scattered about and a general unpleasantness -that's what the women said. I was often out the building so it mattered less to me or some colleagues but mattered a lot to others. Management conceded. Women reverted to the queue.
I do apologise if this seems flippant given the serious nature of this discussion but just saying.

No regulations for changing spaces and toilets I think, because there is no evidence that any transwoman has assaulted anyone in those spaces. (The attacks in unisex toilets were not necessarily by trans women) For spaces like refuges and prisons a proper and legally enforceable risk assessment that must be adhered to, which identifies anyone who might be a risk to others, and special accommodation provided for those people.
One of the real problems is that for some reason a situation which has existed for years-transwomen using women's facilities- has suddenly become headline news and fears have been generated.

Iam64 did those women not have the courage to call the men out and ask them if they would do similar things in their home toilets?

Was there evidence of puddles on the floor and the toilet being generally dirtier? Maybe it was just a perception

BTW the above is a question not a statement.

because there is no evidence that any transwoman has assaulted anyone in those spaces.

You've said this before trisher and I've already provided you with evidence that it already has happened.

February 2019

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket. Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March. She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall.

September 2019

SICKENED residents at a female-only hostel have hit out after a transgender sex offender was housed there.
Katie Dolatowski, 18, avoided a prison sentence for sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in Morrisons, Kirkcaldy, and filming a 12-year-old over a toilet cubicle in Asda, Dunfermline.
Campaigners say women at the supported Fife accommodation - which has a shared bathroom could have been put in danger while she was living there.

One resident in the unit for homeless offenders said: “This is a women’s hostel and it’s all women who work here. I feel sick and can’t stop thinking about what she has done.”
A spokeswoman for Women and Girls in Scotland said: “Katie Dolatowski has already taken advantage of access to female spaces to commit sexual assault.

“It is absolutely unacceptable that this person was being given the same opportunity again."

So that's 2 Chewbacca but transwomen have been sharing women's loos for about 40 years. So is it realy a huge problem? It might be a good idea to make sure cubicles have walls which touch the ground and ceiling and actually Unisex loos are more likely to have those.
The second incident would be covered by a proper and legally enforcable risk assessment. I really don't want women to be at risk but I don't see how putting in place unenforceable regulations would do that.

It might be a good idea to make sure cubicles have walls which touch the ground and ceiling and actually Unisex loos are more likely to have those.

And it might be an even better idea if we just keep men out of spaces that are just for women, especially when those women are in a vulnerable position.

Starblaze

Was there evidence of puddles on the floor and the toilet being generally dirtier? Maybe it was just a perception

BTW the above is a question not a statement.

I have used unisex toilets in theatres and university buildings. They are generally smellier than ladies loos in my experience.
I don’t notice it on trains and planes so much though.

We had one unisex toilet where I worked years ago.
As far as I know, no-one ever used it.

It depends how many women you think should be assaulted to make men feel better. The attacks are by men and I am afraid transwomen are men. I dont know how many attacks have been by ginger men for example but they are excluded because of their sex.

Parsley I haven't but there are probably differences in places depending on usage and cleaning schedule, shared toilets have been hit and miss for me in different places regardless of the sign on the door

Can we have a quick recap so I know where we are?

Calling someone transphobic is an insult but it also doesn't exist as a term.

Being transphobic is fine even though it is an insult and/or doesn't exist as a term.

Some trans women are sexual predators but we are going to ignore that some women are also sexual predators. So we cannot have measures to keep everyone safe because female predators... Well under the rug with them!

Mysogyny is not going to be challenged directly by feminists but anyone who accepts trans women is not a feminist.

Reasonable measures cannot be put in place to prevent discrimination against trans women, not because it is impossible but because they are men anyway so there.

Also, ew puddles

Is that everything?

The Times, September 2019

Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at
women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.
Male prisoners who were transferred to women’s jails during gender reassignment and women inmates who are transitioning committed seven of the 124 sex attacks recorded between 2010 and 2018. They occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire.

To refresh your memory Starblaze:

It's another area where women are expected to accommodate, mediate, not challenge but loose ourselves with the aim of keeping the peace. The peace that has silenced women for hundreds of years

With thanks to Iam64.

So proper risk assessment legally enforceable for anyone who is seen as a threat Chewbacca and that includes the women who assault other women in prisons.

I am out , under no circumstances are you arguing in good faith starblaze.

But I thought you said that proper risk assessments were already in place and being enforced in jails and so there is no risk?
And how would you enforce any legislation in a public toilets? Especially if it was a uni sex toilets where both men and women were entitled to be?
I'd much prefer to hear that when a woman is in a vulnerable position, whether that be in prison, in a hostel, in changing rooms or toilets, biological men are not allowed access.