Woman

Well said, grannygranby!

I fear your words will fall on stony ground, however.

How have I "denied biological sex" Galaxy why is asking someone be referred to as a "person" denying anything? Biological sex exists of course it does, but I have yet to meet anyone man or woman who insisted on demonstrating theirs to me.

grannygranby
Brilliant post ????
These activists have taken me from someone who grew up with seeing men dressed as women so therefore it was no big deal to someone who is well and truly pissed off with their rhetoric.

By including men in the term women people deny biological sex. By saying women arent allowed to use a word to describe their reality.

Actually I'll correct that not since I was very young and played "doctors and nurses" and "I'll show you mine etc" has anyone insisted on demonstrating theirs to me. Some might have tried.

trisher

How have I "denied biological sex" Galaxy why is asking someone be referred to as a "person" denying anything? Biological sex exists of course it does, but I have yet to meet anyone man or woman who insisted on demonstrating theirs to me.

By that logic referring to people as 'mammals' or 'living things' wouldn't deny anything, but surely you can see that there are times when a bit of differentiation is necessary?

I'm not at all sure what the last part of your post is supposed to mean.

But you can use what you like Galaxy. You just can't insist others must do the same. It's called respect. Just as I respect anyone else's rights I respect a transman's rights to be called a man. Now biologically he may be female but that isn't his gender of choice. Can't you see the difference.
Incidentally I think all this discussion is why more and more young people are using "they" and saying they are non-binary- so of course just people.

But there is no respect when women ask to use the word that describes them.

If you can explain to me Doodledoghow using the term people in an article- which as I explained earlier was probably done for good reason- necessitates any differentiation I would appreciate it.

Galaxy if you want to be called a woman you can be. You just can't insist others are called it.

I am not insisting that trisher. People can call themselves what they like. If the word women includes men it is meaningless. In the way that if the word lesbian included women who are not attracted to women it would be meaningless.

Whst does the word woman mean to you. I am not using that as a gotcha, I am genuinely curious.

Doodledog the last part of my post means that usually in our everyday lives we seldom have occasion to verify anyone's biological sex, we simply take them as the gender they present as. So there may be occasions when it is important but for the most part it isn't.

But what does that mean the gender they present as. I dont present gender. I wear clothes, sometimes I wear makeup sometimes I don't. My mum never wears makeup and always wears trousers. What gender is she presenting.

trisher

If you can explain to me Doodledoghow using the term people in an article- which as I explained earlier was probably done for good reason- necessitates any differentiation I would appreciate it.

It is not just in articles that terms are changing, as you know.

The language is being adapted to eradicate references to women/female people/those who give birth/mothers. Why not just use the terms 'women' and 'transwomen'/'transmen' when it is necessary to differentiate or find a way to circumnavigate the fact that there are differences between these groups?

What's next for members of the female sex? Handmaidens, Econowives, Marthas, Aunts, Unwomen? Ciswomen is already being used as a way of defining us as a sub-species of our own sex.

grannygranby thank you. Your post describes exactly how I feel.

Galaxy

I am not insisting that trisher. People can call themselves what they like. If the word women includes men it is meaningless. In the way that if the word lesbian included women who are not attracted to women it would be meaningless.

Or, indeed, if the term ‘lesbian’ included non-medically transitioned transwomen who are sexually attracted to women…

The whole idea that people 'present as' a gender underpins the problem, IMO. 'Present as' what you like, but there is no way that you can change sex. Far better to change the way we (as a society) pigeonhole people into 'genders' that can be detected by presentation.

The idea that one set of presentational norms can be defined as 'male' and another 'female' is preposterous. Such norms are time and culture specific for a start, and nothing to do with natural inclination.

FC -non medically transitioned transwomen who are sexually attracted to women . . .
are men saying they’re attracted to women. That covers most of the population.
Why bother?

Well Galaxy if your mum wore trousers. allowed her facial hair to grow and used the gents she might well be assumed to be a man. The fact that you say don't know what presenting as a certain gender means is just sophistry. We all make assumptions about the gender of others everyday. And women are mostly people who present as female, which I assume your mum even in trousers does. Among those there will be and there always has been a few people you would probably class as biologically male. I accept them as women you don't. It's a choice. But I'd really like to know how you think you know which is a trans woman and which isn't. And as you say presenting as a gender can't be defined why does it matter? You seem to be arguing for non-binary.

GranyGranby13
What do I think{hmm}? what ever floats their boat.{grin}

Mollygo

FC -non medically transitioned transwomen who are sexually attracted to women . . .
are men saying they’re attracted to women. That covers most of the population.
Why bother?

Yes - but they also identify as women. See Izzard, E (well they were identifying as a lesbian the last time I heard about them).

Sorry GrannyGranby I must be thinking of another poster.

I wont use my mum as an example of this because that's unfair, I have facial hair though. And I am wearing trousers. Your examples are stereotypes. Are you now saying that trousers are indicative of being a man?

So the word woman to you includes men, it therefore means nothing.