EHRC suggestion on toilet facilities

Galaxy

The EHRC guidance covers all single sex facilities ( prisons, refuges, etc) and also ensures that for example lesbians can have organisations without the presence of men, it really is about more than toilets.

... it really is about more than toilets.

Hear, hear, Galaxy.

I'm greatly in favour of separate self-contained toilet rooms. There are lots of reasons people might prefer privacy and to have a wash basin in the same space, for example people needing to change colostomy or urine bags, people with bowel problems, even women with heavy periods might need to clean up before going into a shared space.

Doodledog

I think the reason cubicle doors aren't floor to ceiling is so that emergency services can access them if necessary.

It would be a good reason if the doors didn't open inwards, which they do usually. If you're passed out on the floor they still need tools to get you out unless you're really thin. I thought it was to make it less easy to use the toilets for the wrong reasons.

To me, it’s the principle of have same-sex spaces enshrined as a right in law. I’m not too bothered about toilets - as long as they are clean - and I think we are talking about toilets rather than the other space because it suits trans activists to debate something that is easier to minimise. The really important single-sex spaces are prisons, rape crisis centres/refuges, schools and hospitals.

Urinals mean a bloke turns around and zips up. Not suitable for anyone to see.

The location of the facilities can be a problem I think as certainly in large shopping malls they tend to be in quiet out of the way places which could be problematic for anybody however they identify.
Personally I think bathrooms should be male only or female only and would suggest that trans people use the disabled loos. I stress I don't consider trans people as disabled and do not intend any insult here just a practical solution. Maybe the signs on these loos could be altered in some way to show they are 'inclusive'?

Dickens

Galaxy

The EHRC guidance covers all single sex facilities ( prisons, refuges, etc) and also ensures that for example lesbians can have organisations without the presence of men, it really is about more than toilets.

... it really is about more than toilets.

Hear, hear, Galaxy.

The particular guidance the EHRC has released is just about toilets.

Exactly.
The issue is much bigger for other facilities such as hospitals, prisons. I also think it might be an issue in open changing rooms especially for teens.

Romola

Well, Monica I think I would feel pretty safe in the Wallace collection in broad daylight, in whatever style of facility
Alone on a railway station late at night, as I was this week after the theatre, then I would definitely have wanted the female facilities to be for biological women only.

Alone on a railway station, or anywhere else at night, I would not particularly want to use a public toilet, however badly I needed it!

M0nica

I have been to several venues where everything was in cubicles, with floor to ceiling walls and sealing doors, thus ensuring anyone using them total privacy and everyone used them, male, female, trans aand everything else everyone has thought of.

Much simpler and easier.

Quite agree Monica this would solve all the issues and reduce the crazy wait at the ladies at concerts and conferences etc . Everyone happy

That may seem sensible, but then we'd run into issues with deciding where was a safe 'safe space' (eg in a conference centre) and an unsafe 'safe space', such as an empty platform at night. The guidance has to be clear.

When travelling in France ,if the women’s toilets are being cleaned there is always a notice telling you to use the men’s and visa versa . I found it very strange walking into the men’s side with all the urinals lined up as you walk in The locals took it as the norm !1,

I have daughters and granddaughters and would not be happy for 'Trans' using the ladies facilities. I've known quite a few 'Trans' and gay men over the years and they've been ok. But, just because they say they are women doesn't meant they are! If they're intact males how can anyone be sure they're not using it as a cover to gain access to female spaces? Some have already been caught, and it is wrong! Don't know how many businesses will deal with this, but I don't want MEN in the ladies toilet however loud thy claim to be a woman. Too risky.

Problem is in the guidance, it's clear what is now not allowed, fine, but says Suitable alternative provisions may be required without any guidance as to what that could be.

Wyllow3

Problem is in the guidance, it's clear what is now not allowed, fine, but says Suitable alternative provisions may be required without any guidance as to what that could be.

Perhaps there needs to be some investigation into what TW would consider suitable alternative provision.
You are in an ideal position to know what that might be.

I am of the belief that, anyone intending to break the law and harm women do not care what sign is on the toilet door. I don't think they think to themselves "Oh, that's rather too many laws to break all at once, I'll go vomit this crime somewhere else".

I really think that the suitable provision is that there are toilets for males and others for females. Both sexes should use the ones designed for them. Third or fourth spaces will take up space, cost a fortune and be impractical in smaller premises. In airports or shopping centres they'd be fine, but in a small cafe or shop it just doesn't make sense. TW have been telling women for years that we are at no risk from men, so they can take their own advice, unless it is practical for 'trans' spaces to be installed.

Yes it will be awkward at first, but just as women had to get used to having men in our spaces, over time TW will get used to using the Gents, too.

Or if there is a Disabled loo, that is a third option, as they are usually unisex anyway.

I once returned with my friend to a shop we had been to before. She desperately needed to use the toilet but it was locked. She begged the assistant to allow her to use it but they said it was not for public use. However, they saw the situation and finally opened it. We believed it was closed to all the public because they did not have the money to make it usable for disabled users

Posted too early
The point being if the company cannot provide all these different facilities they may close all to the public.

I’m not clear tbh how anyone will be able to distinguish between a woman born as female, and one who has transitioned to female, as the ones that I have met and got to know I simply can’t see anyone challenging them in a public loo etc.

Problem is in the guidance, No problem at all.
Suitable alternative provisions may be required
That is a problem for the trans community to sort out. After all, they have access to their biological sex lavatories.

I think the point is that if a male goes into a women's loo he will have to behave respectfully (which of course most will) as the law now says he has no right to be there. I wouldn't challenge someone in the Ladies - I am not, and never have been transphobic - but if someone was making a nuisance of himself and security was called, the offence would be compounded by the fact that he shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

Posters on these threads have said from the start that it is the TW who are behaving aggressively who are the problem. Someone like India Willoughby shouting that he is a biological woman and refusing to use the so-called 'gender neutral' ones in order to make a point - that sort of thing should stop now. Hayley from Corrie will no doubt be just fine.

It is all a bit weird - I know of one trans man who works in a supermarket near me - and he/she is totally convincing as a man - very disconcerting if he/she walks into the lady’s and whose to tell if that person is a trans man or born male?

It is all getting a bit silly I think.

I suppose that the bonus would be that if the loos were unisex we wouldn't have to wait so long to use them, though presumably men would take longer to use a cubicle than a urinal?
I've been in large changing rooms with separate cubicles which were unisex and it didn't bother me at all, there is always going to be an assistant at the door so nothing untoward is likely to happen.