EHRC suggestion on toilet facilities

Surely where there is an accessible loo, it could be used by anyone as it’s a locked cubicle?

Thats what has happened in our local park - the accessible loo is now open to anyone. And they also built a family room (changing Babies etc) open to all.

They should make the disabled loos also for Trans as there unisex after all .
after I had an accident I used to use the disabled for awhile, and they were almost always vacant..
Sorted 👍

People with disabilities fought very hard to have facilities that meet their needs, I think that would be for people with disabilities to make that decision.

We are all thinking of trans women and saying they should use the men's toilet but how would we feel allowing trans men use the female toilet. How would you feel sharing a changing room with this person who is biologically female. Now goes under the name of Leo Macallan was originally Liz Macallan

i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/article32026511.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200e/0_I-came-out-as-a-trans-man-when-I-was-22-people-tell-me-I-look-like-Tom-Hardy.jpg

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Macadia

Ummm. Let's think for a minute.......

Oh, yes, maybe because, quite obviously, she mightn't feel safe?!
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Barbadosbelle Yeah he looks the fragile type doesn’t he!

I am guessing Macadia is an auto correct for Macallan Apologies if I have that wrong.

Leo will I imaging feel very embarrassed as he will be aware of the discomfort he will cause in the female changing rooms but if the law says you have to use your biological sex rooms then he will have no option. If we say he should break the law so can others.

There is more than one side to this problem.

Jackiest

We are all thinking of trans women and saying they should use the men's toilet but how would we feel allowing trans men use the female toilet. How would you feel sharing a changing room with this person who is biologically female. Now goes under the name of Leo Macallan was originally Liz Macallan

i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/article32026511.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200e/0_I-came-out-as-a-trans-man-when-I-was-22-people-tell-me-I-look-like-Tom-Hardy.jpg

I wouldnt feel happy about it.

I wouldn’t say she should break the law.
Presumably, since she is proud enough to show off to the media, what she has done with her body, she would be happy to explain that she is in fact female, without resorting to violence like some TW do.

Although the guidance is in principle quite clear, the problem Jackiest alluded to is mentioned in the guidance,

"“The guidance states that in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological women) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities

For example, trans men could be excluded from women's facilities "where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance", the watchdog told the BBC.

The guidance adds: "Where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyw9qjeq8po

Anyone who passes as the opposite sex can use opposite sex toilets and no-one will know.

In other situations eg hospital wards, DV refuge staff, prisons, the person's genuine sex will be known so their looks won't matter.

Wyllow3

Who decides which trans men and women are permitted to use their chosen facilities. Are they going to be given some sort of trans pass that they show people if they get questioned. I am not sure this guidance has really helped that much. The only real way I can see out of this mess is to have mixed facilities with everyone having privacy of their own door they can close.

Just because they pass doesn't mean they're not predatory. And who's to say who passes? A 6'2" bloke with smeary makeup, a nylon wig and muscular legs teetering atop a pair of stilettos probably leaves the house thinking he's the very epitome of "woman" and would easily pass. The only reasonable option is for the transgender community to work together to insist that they have facilities of their own, that neither impinge nor take away from either biological sex and most definitely not the disabled, but caters specifically for them.

My understanding of the guidance is that it's up to whomever provides the facilities to provide facilities for all.

""Where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use."

Wyllow3

My understanding of the guidance is that it's up to whomever provides the facilities to provide facilities for all.

""Where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use."

Agreed. Maybe a concerted push by all trans, with the backing of women and men, for facilities that don’t take away women’s rights to safe spaces but provide for trans is what’s needed.

I agree with that MollyGo up to a point. I honestly don't think that facilities for the transgender community is for anyone else to sort out but them. They've demonstrated frequently how resourceful and proactive they can be when they've made their previous demands; getting their own facilities, where they feel accommodated and safe shouldn't be a huge deal for them to negotiate. Women and the disabled did it before them.

Would trans men and women be happy sharing facilities. We are not happy sharing facilities with men. So that means pubs and restaurants having 4 sets of toilets. I must admit if I was a pub or restaurant I would look to changing to one set of toilets with proper doors that are used by all rather than having 3 or 4 sets.

Jackiest

I am guessing Macadia is an auto correct for Macallan Apologies if I have that wrong.

Leo will I imaging feel very embarrassed as he will be aware of the discomfort he will cause in the female changing rooms but if the law says you have to use your biological sex rooms then he will have no option. If we say he should break the law so can others.

There is more than one side to this problem.

Surely Macallan will seek out one of the many 'all gender' toilets that are around? If she chooses to break the law and use the men's facilities that is a problem for men to report, but in no way justifies a transwoman equally breaking the law.
Your preferred 'all mixed' facilities just won't work in many places, requiring far too much expensive building and plumbing work. Of course hospitals, refuges and prisons won't need mixed sex facilities because they will now be single sex areas. Going forward new builds can certainly offer separate female, male and mixed sex facilities. If they need to cut one, let it be the male toilets, not as has been happening recently whereby the female toilets have been reassigned 'gender neutral' leaving the male ones still single sex.

Jackiest

Would trans men and women be happy sharing facilities. We are not happy sharing facilities with men. So that means pubs and restaurants having 4 sets of toilets. I must admit if I was a pub or restaurant I would look to changing to one set of toilets with proper doors that are used by all rather than having 3 or 4 sets.

You say Would trans men and women be happy sharing facilities. We are not happy sharing facilities with men. then go on to say all toilets should be mixed. Why will that suddenly make us happy to share facilities? I don't understand your thinking.

By mixed I mean ones with proper toilets and wash basins behind complete doors. Most of the ones now have partial doors and communal wash basins.

Galaxy

People with disabilities fought very hard to have facilities that meet their needs, I think that would be for people with disabilities to make that decision.

I'm sure that would open another can of worms as disabled women ALSO would like to be safe from those who may not actually be Trans Men. So DeDe, not sorted in my opinion

yogitree

Galaxy

People with disabilities fought very hard to have facilities that meet their needs, I think that would be for people with disabilities to make that decision.

I'm sure that would open another can of worms as disabled women ALSO would like to be safe from those who may not actually be Trans Men. So DeDe, not sorted in my opinion

Disabled men can already use the disabled loos, so disabled women don't have a single-sex space.

I'm not sure what I think about disabled loos being open to transpeople. Whilst I see Galaxy's point, I also recognise that transpeople have to go somewhere, and as there are lots of hidden disabilities it wouldn't be screaming to the whole bar that they were trans if they used them.

Also, they are often empty a lot of the time, and the point of them is that they provide accessible facilities to the disabled, not that the disabled have exclusive access to them (or so my workplace said when the only Ladies loo was also the disabled one). In many ways that seems a sensible solution.

Good practical post, Doodledog, especially whilst different provision gets sorted out depending on the building.

And ideally, more single space unisex provision as time goes on.

I don't think anyone should "have" to campaign, it's clear that "provision is to be made".

I think we'll have to see how things proceed in practice, and that there may be local "campaigns" as regards a particular space to sort out.

Carlotta

Just because they pass doesn't mean they're not predatory. And who's to say who passes? A 6'2" bloke with smeary makeup, a nylon wig and muscular legs teetering atop a pair of stilettos probably leaves the house thinking he's the very epitome of "woman" and would easily pass. The only reasonable option is for the transgender community to work together to insist that they have facilities of their own, that neither impinge nor take away from either biological sex and most definitely not the disabled, but caters specifically for them.

Yes, but there is the element of cost.
The biggest problem is that the TW who caused the need for the ruling in 16.4.25 , making problems for those who have so far gone unnoticed, would continue to lie their way into female spaces, just to prove they can.
Social media has plenty of examples already of men saying they would do just that.
What I’d really like to know, from all those who know a trans man, are related to a trans man etc, is why there has been no uproar about these trans men using the male toilets?