EHRC suggestion on toilet facilities

Aveline

I like Ladies rooms as they are. The rows of sinks and mirrors and sometimes chairs can be companionable. Not always of course but I'd be loth to lose these because a tiny minority of men want to pretend to be female.

Indeed.
The actions of a few men seem likely to spoil benefits women have enjoyed.
The changes are necessary because of those men, and they still won’t guarantee safety from ill-intentioned males who will lie their way into female spaces just to show that they can.

I've never understood toilets as a social hang out. It's just not hygienic and the awful things you can catch, including worms. Go, wash hands thoroughly and try to leave without touching anything. Perhaps at a loud venue it makes sense but surely having quiet rooms in those would be rather superior?

62Granny

I think we need to get away from toilets having a communal area with hand basins, toilets should be a complete unit with a toilet and sink behind each door. A lot of chain restaurants have this system now and tbh it is usually easier. I can never fathom why " ladies" seem to take so long and there is always a huge queue for the ladies.

It's for the very reasons we want single sex spaces. Women have to undress to use the loo, and obviously put things back to rights again. We often have to deal with periods and that takes time. Women are more likely than men to have small children with them, and so on. It's not that we dawdle - in my experience very few women take the paper or crossword in with them

Yes to all those reasons Doodledog.

At the Motorway services facilities you often see mums dealing with one child whilst Grandma or another female holds onto another child/children until mum deals with each one, then the adults take it in turns.

I can hear from some who won’t understand, cries of “Why not wait outside with them?” If a child/children and an adult don’t want to go, that makes sense.
But children are notorious for not wanting to need the toilet until they realise they’re missing out on the opportunity. Much easier to have them all in one place while you take it in turns. Also sinks are far less inviting to run away to than shop spaces when you’re trying to look after small, or even older children.

Perhaps a small room with a single cubicle inside it would work well for young families as well as meaning a toilet can be shared with a friend or even a significant other for safety.

Luminance

Perhaps a small room with a single cubicle inside it would work well for young families as well as meaning a toilet can be shared with a friend or even a significant other for safety.

No. Women don't want a return to the days of needing significant others to protect us. We just want single-sex spaces. It's not difficult.

👍 Doodledog it really isn't difficult.

Well you may speak for yourself Doodledog but a space that allows others their comfort whatever that may mean seems sensible to me. Especially for parents and children who are old enough to go alone but perhaps not always safe to do so.

Luminance

Well you may speak for yourself Doodledog but a space that allows others their comfort whatever that may mean seems sensible to me. Especially for parents and children who are old enough to go alone but perhaps not always safe to do so.

You can't speak for others, Luminance. I can, however, speak for myself, as you rightly say, and that is what I am doing.

I Do Not Want To Need A Significant Other To Accompany Me To The Lavatory. I am An Adult Human Female, And Prefer To Be Independent.

with a friend or even a significant other for safety.

Well that's an own goal Luminance! If we didn't have any men in the ladies toilets even the ones in a dress and high heels we wouldn't need to have anyone for safety because women, without men are generally perfectly safe.

I quite understand stand how others feel on this topic but I am also taking into account how others feel in the situation and how I myself feel. The problem we have are spaces that don't suit everyone and people have shared how those spaces were unsafe to them or loved ones. So having a solution that suits every scenario and personal need seems a good approach.

Absolutely. Having a solution that suits everyone would be fabulous. I'd love to hear what it is though, as nothing that has been suggested so far would suit everyone, and I would suggest that anything that excludes males won't suit autogynephile transwomen. Other kinds of transwomen might be happy with unisex spaces that are safely positioned and self-contained, or with accepting their male sex and using the Gents'; but the ones who need to believe that they are indistinguishable from women won't be happy with that. We've seen people like India Willoughby refuse to use even unisex facilities as India believes that India is a woman, and screamed that belief in the face of octogenarian Amanda Barrie in Celebrity Big Brother.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsJxpvGzo3E

I understand that concern over trans women using these spaces is part of the thread but the issue of how to police that has been brought up many times and stories have been shared of men themselves violating that privacy without any sort of disguise needed. Many women have also shared their own opinions here on what a safe and secure facility is to them and it would be rather good if those who make these decisions took all of them into account and resolved as many issues as possible with a plan going forward.

The solution we had for a century worked remarkably well Luminance. It only stopped working when men with mental health problems decided to take over that space and use it for their own gains. They could, if they had chosen to do so, created a safe space within the men's facilities instead but they decided that it was easier if they just commandeered women's spaces instead expecting women to stfu and move over. To be fair, women have accommodated men in their spaces for rather a long time but, as more and more women have been attacked, assaulted and insulted, we've pretty much had enough of this nonsense and want it to stop. The Supreme Court ruling agrees with us so now men will have to figure out where they can go. It's not for women to come up with a solution for where men in frocks can go for a pee; we didn't create their problems; this is for them to resolve. Some of us are busy dealing with the fallout of what they did to us when they abused us in our safe spaces.

I think reading the stories of other women sharing here might change your mind on that. Women have shared frightening things that happened, thefts under stalls, being unable to use facilities due to age or disability, women who find the wait time for women's facilities too long while the men's stand empty and more: Women with sons worrying about allowing them into the mens alone, women who feel tasks with more childcare fall to them with no changing stations in mens toilets. Surely catering to that not only removes those issues but means trans people and bathrooms are no longer an issue at all?

Well said, Carlotta, and I'd add that it's not for women to tell other women what we should take into account when making a plan that accommodates men. As you say, let the men do some thinking about it and consider what we, as women will accept in women's spaces. They can also work out how their solution can be policed.

I know that some women enable men in their entitlement, but the last few posts have been unbelievable.

Sheer common sense, Carlotta.

It is of course entirely fair to say, I want no part in finding a solution to an issue I didn't cause. Yet it seems a far broader issue than that and I think all the women here voicing concerns should have the opportunity to have those considered going forward.

Doodledog that clip fully illustrates that India Willoughby is male. No woman would feel the need to scream those words like that. India advocated for barbed wire in the channel to rupture the boats bringing asylum seekers to our shores showing exactly the type of person he is, so that rant was completely in character.
I don't want any men in women's single sex spaces and at last the law has been clarified and it is written large.

thefts under stalls make the dividing walls between the cubicles full length. Problem sorted.
being unable to use facilities due to age or disability, use the disabled facilities. Problem sorted.
women who find the wait time for women's facilities too long Well the queues will be considerably shorter and quicker if men aren't in them. Problem sorted.
Women with sons worrying about allowing them into the mens alone Depends entirely upon the age of the son doesn't it? Under 8 and I can't imagine any woman objecting to a little child going in with his mum. Over 8 and you can either stay outside the toilets and watch out for him, or use the disabled or unisex toilets where available. No problem.
women who feel tasks with more childcare fall to them with no changing stations in mens toilets. Baby changing facilities are, in the vast majority, a separate cubicle; neither male nor female. Even in tiny cafes, the signs on the doors are "male" "female" "baby changing" or just "toilet" with baby changing facilities inside. But if fathers with small babies recognise that they should have baby changing facilities too, that's another thing that they should be fighting for.

Luminance we've managed for many, many years to cope with our toilet facilities; queues, children, disabilities et al. What we haven't coped with is men in them. If men want to change their kid's nappies and their aren't the facilities in their toilets, they should start campaigning for them. Why do you have this urge to problem solve for men? They're grown adults who have full capacity and capability to get what they want or need without "the little woman" sweeping up ahead of them to make their lives easier. No wonder men have been so successful in getting women to move over, make room and shut up when some women are so desperate to take over men's own agency for them.

Luminance

It is of course entirely fair to say, I want no part in finding a solution to an issue I didn't cause. Yet it seems a far broader issue than that and I think all the women here voicing concerns should have the opportunity to have those considered going forward.

We have had our concerns considered, and it is now illegal for males to use women's spaces.

Result.

Doodledog

Well said, Carlotta, and I'd add that it's not for women to tell other women what we should take into account when making a plan that accommodates men. As you say, let the men do some thinking about it and consider what we, as women will accept in women's spaces. They can also work out how their solution can be policed.

I know that some women enable men in their entitlement, but the last few posts have been unbelievable.

Well said Carlotta and for your addition Doodledog
I do wonder if the urge to problem solve for men that we keep seeing is an indication of something else.
There is no rule about what sex you need to be on GN and there are definitely women who enable or support men who do things that are unkind to women or even illegal, even posting on social media.

Carlotta In general would you say my comments are problem solving for men or women?

Baring in mind the lack of changing facilities in the mens comment actually pertained to that burden being forced entirely on women

Yes I would Luminance