The "Why did nobody tell me?" parenting book ad

Thanks, janea. OK that T-shirt's about as bad as it could be.

I think I said JP may not have had a choice about being met and greeted by T-shirt man. Without seeing any contract he might have signed, etc, etc, we aren't in a position to judge.

Think I'll go and check out JP's Twitter feed and see if he had anything to say about it.

I expect that Peterson will indeed have had a contract requiring him to do certain things.

But contracts are only valid and can only be upheld in a court of law if they are reasonable.

I’m sure that if Peterson had refused to be photographed with t/shirt man because he didn’t want to appear to endorse Islamophobia, and been sued for breach of contract, he could have found a competent lawyer to defend him.

One who was able to argue that it is unreasonable to expect a public figure to pose for a photograph with someone wearing a t-shirt, the wearing of which probably constitutes a hate crime.

Perhaps he’s wishing he had got his lawyer to look over the contract before he signed it, to make sure there was a clause requiring all guests to be appropriately dressed.

I understand your argument, janea, and think it reasonable. However, just as retweets are not automatically endorsements of whatever is being retweeted, I think there is a strong case to be made that allowing someone who is wearing an objectionable T-shirt to be photographed with one in the same way as have all the other meeters and greeters, is not an automatic endorsement of what's written on their clothing.

Well, whatever his motivation for allowing himself to be photographed with t/shirt man, and whether it was an act of commission or omission, I think it may well have lost him followers.

People who may have been prepared to consider his arguments and suggestions may now judge him on the basis of his own judgement, or lack of it.

I wonder what the university of Toronto makes of it. They didn’t like it when he refused to use the preferred pronoun for transgender people. Behaving in a way which could be interpreted as condoning Islamophobia is in a different league.

Not to mention all the other things on the t-shirt.

Baggs if you think that the only issue with him is the pronouns issue then you’ve a lot of catching up to do. I stand by my description of him as an attention seeking man child shouting out wee, poo, bum, willy. I think reading Patience Strong would give you better rules for life and would contain more intellectual rigour and honesty. How anyone could begin to be an apologist for anyone being photographed with that T-shirt wearing grinning racist is beyond me

MN have completely got the measure of him btw

he may not have had a choice about meeting T-short guy and having his photo taken with him
Of course he had a choice - he has his arm around the shoulder of the t-shirt man too, in a friendly fashion.

He sounds rather like a cult figure, preying on those with anxieties.

And of course, had t-shirt said ‘I’m an anti-semite’ well, there wouldn’t have been a debate because it wouldn’t have happened.

I don’t for a moment expect Jordan Peterson approves of terrible acts against innocent people such as the Christchurch shooting. His message that males are being victimised by a feminazi culture,however, appeals to some psychologically fragile young men. His ‘willy-waving’ language may encourage them to ‘willy-wave’with automatic weapons.

On the other hand, who could deny that it’s important to keep your room tidy. I’m with JP on that one!

I think JP's room tidying rule is metaphorical, not literal.

janea, JP has not refused to use the preferred pronouns of any affected person who asks him. He said he would out of courtesy. What he has refused to do is obey authoritarian laws that he believes government (any government) has no right to make.

Government telling people what words they are allowed to use is the stuff of nightmares. Don't people see that?

It amuses me, in a slightly baffled way, how people seem to have leapt on a bandwagon of disapproval with regard to JP when most of them haven't read his book or listened to his podcasts. Intelligent people too.

People are weird.

Hmm. With regard to my comment about people being weird, I'm also reading the philosopher, Russell Blackford's book, The Tyranny of Opinion, which explains what I'm calling bandwaggoning rather well in terms of social pressure (approval, rewards, etc). So I'll retract that thing about people being weird. It's weirder, it seems, not to jump on bandwagons of opinion.

Off to work...

Baggs
maryeliza, jalima and I agreeing with each other hardly constitutes jumping on a bandwagon. Your implication that we haven’t arrived at broadly similar conclusions about Peterson independently is rather unfair.
No, I haven’t read Peterson’s books. I haven’t listened to his podcasts.
I did watch (in its entirety) his interview with Cathy Newman on Ch4 news.

I don’t think it’s necessary to have done any of the above, to reach a conclusion about the appropriateness and wisdom of a public figure allowing himself to be photographed with someone wearing that t-shirt.

Perhaps, if you’ve read the books and listened to the podcasts, you could enlighten us as to why we’re wrong and Peterson is so great.

Don't let your children do anything that makes you dislike them. That strikes me as a good thing to be told.

As Jane10 says - how do you stop them?
And will you always find out?

I thought the preferred expression was 'I may not like what you have done but I still love you'.

I thought that too, jalima.
And sorry I missed jane10 off the bandwagon.

I am only just finding out about some misdemeanours nearly 30 years later!
In fact, things they thought that I didn't know (but did)

There are two articles in the Times this morning about the JP and "Islamaphobe" story, including a clear picture of what some of the writing on that T-shirt so I had a good look. I hate all the things on that T-shirt too. Does that make me an Islamophobe? Rhetocial question. It doesn't.
I'm beginning to wonder if that guy misspelled the word deliberately and is actually taking the piss about people calling things islamophobic which aren't. The trouble is, people conflate Muslim-hating with hatred of some of the things that radical Islam seems to endorse, which things most Muslims also hate of course.

I think all other gransnetters probably hate the things spelled out on that T-shirt too.

janea, my comments about bandwaggoning were much more general than about a few gransnetters on this thread. This probably wasn't clear from what I wrote. My mistake.
Actually, what Blackford writes about it is really interesting and bandwaggoning is a description as he uses it, not a derogation. More later when I have the energy.

Off to work.... (I read Blackford on the bus on the way and one the sea wall as I wait for the bus home afterwards) ?

Yes, I see that Cambridge has withdrawn the offer of a visiting Fellowship because of the photograph. Personally I think that's the right call, although in general I don't like no-platforming. So far, I haven't seen anything by Peterson himself, defending the photograph or the man's right to wear it, or his own decision to pose with the man, apart from a shouty response that was quoted at the end of the article. I'd take more notice of something measured and considered. I didn't buy Melanie Phillips' rather hysterical response.

I haven't read anything by Blackford, but his ideas about bandwaggoning sound like the idea of social reinforcement - that if we think a lot of other people think something or do something, we're more likely to do or think those things ourselves.
It's why noticed in doctors' waiting rooms castigating patients for missing appointments ('last month 385 appointments were missed, equivalent to 70 hours of surgery time') are actually counter-productive. Patients read it and (perhaps subconsciously) register that because nearly everyone else misses their appointment, it's ok for them to do so too.

As a result of the fallout from that photograph—though I thought Cambridge had rescinded the fellowship offer before they knew about that; I forget on what grounds...no! wait! it was because, they said, JP's views did not reflect the views of most of their students, or some such claptrap. If universities can't cope with what they deem controversial views, who can? Isn't debate over sticky issues what universities are for?—JP has responded and there will be reports in good newspapers. In the Times he says he has asked the organisers of his meet and greet sessions to ask people politely to "refrain from more political garb", even though he believes in free expression. He also challenges anyone to find "a single phrase that marks me as a prejudiced person regarding sex, race, ethnicity, or indeed any of the multiplicity of identities that have become so quickly and strangely dominant in our culture so recently".

In the age of "instant devastation by pitchfork- and torch-wielding Twitter mobs" it would not be possible to have the opinions he is accused of holding, he says.

So, detractors, take the challenge. Read his stuff. Listen to his youtube lectures. Controversial is not a dirty word. JP claims his lectures save lives by giving people previously with out it and in danger of suicide, hope.

More on bandwaggoning anon because it's interesting.

From the Twitter feed called "Shit Academics Say", which is amusing: Retweets are not endorsements. They are performative engagement markers... (Clink, or click even, on link for more.

Baggs , JP's views did not reflect the views of most of their students, or some such claptrap
The article I read in Times says the reason was ‘the casual endorsement by association of this message was thought to be antithetical to the work of a faculty that prides itself on the advancement of interfaith understanding. Some difficult decisions will always be necessary to ensure that our universities remain places of robust, often challenging and even uncomfortable dialogue, while balancing academic freedom with respect for members of our community’.

Seems to me they have the balance right.
Sorry can’t write more just now, being nagged to get out of bed

I bet the people objecting to JP's views do not really know what his views are. Remember how Cathy Newman misunderstood almost everything he said until she was rendered speechless for a minute as she slowly realised that she agreed with him? Well, I suspect a lot of people are doing that misunderstanding.

Have you read his book or listened to his lectures, janea? I don't find him easy to listen to because he often speaks in quite complex sentences, but he talks sense based on many years of experience in clinical psychology and with, I think, much more knowledge of current research than most of the people who criticise him as controversial. You call him controversial but I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) your view on that is based on what other people have said about him rather than your own first hand knowledge.

As Russell Blackford says in his book, The Tyranny of Opinion forthright people are very often viewed as intemperate simply because they express their views confidently and strongly. I suspect this is what is happening with JP.