Junior doctors strike

When doctors leave a post it's highly unusual for them to have an exit interview so there's no opportunity for anyone to know if they have had a good or bad experience. Normal practice with good employers! Generally the NHS trusts are a pretty poor employers.

Ilovecheese has hit the nail on the head. The current government declares itself to be in favour of a market driven economy.
Doctors can and do earn better elsewhere/ enjoy better conditions elsewhere. So, whilst we argue/discuss what we think of their pension rights and what was agreed at the start of the NHS ( long before any working doctor today was born!) the doctors leave - never to return. The solution is obvious.

I saw a physician associate at an emergency appointment on Tuesday. There’s no continuity of care in general practice any more. It’s obvious and research confirms better outcomes for older patients if they have continuity of care by their GP.

Yesterday I had my third, non related, initial assessment for a relatively new health problem. As a result of long waiting lists, I’m an NHS patient at our local private hospital. The surgeon was excellent, I have another reviews in his diary. I mention this because it follows on my previous post about immigration. The consultant was born in Nigeria and came here to work in the NHS as well as this private practice. Our NHS wouldn’t function without so called immigrants.

The government could end the strikes and should properly invest, rather than let it fall apart so private medicine becomes routine

The thing I have never understood is that doctors and nurses undertake their paid for training with no guarantee of a job afterwards. The dd of a friend trained as a medic with the army to cut costs and then had to work for two years as an army doctor. Why doesn’t the NHS do similarly?

Yes Iam64 my recent experiences with matters medical have been no access to my GP but diagnosis by practice nurse ( Australian) , a visit to a physician associate ( Syrian) and a physiotherapy appointment with a delightful young woman from Sri Lanka. I'm not complaining, simply referring to my previous post.

"Whether anyone chooses to become a doctor, in full knowledge of the pay package, is entirely up to them." GSM

Unfortunately, what today's junior doctors didn't know was the extent to which their salary scales would be diminished during the 7/8 years of their medical degree/ foundation training. Also, unlike other professions they basically have only one employer ie the NHS for the whole of their training period (around 15 years or more) so they can't shop around to find better pay and conditions. DD started her med training in 2012, she already had a first class degree, the salary she gets is equivalent to about 75-80% of what she would have expected to receive at this stage in her training. How on earth could she have known that before starting her training? She's very bright but she doesn't have second sight.

Well said foxie.

For Victoria Atkins, on BBC this morning, to refer to junior doctors(surely a misnomer) as 'Doctors in training ' is such an insult and shows contempt. These are experienced doctors of anything up to ten years. Doctors in training are student doctors. That dismissive attitude won't help resolve the situation

Grandmabatty

For Victoria Atkins, on BBC this morning, to refer to junior doctors(surely a misnomer) as 'Doctors in training ' is such an insult and shows contempt. These are experienced doctors of anything up to ten years. Doctors in training are student doctors. That dismissive attitude won't help resolve the situation

Technically she's correct as until they have finished their specialist training, they are still "in training" but they are also the trainers. DD did her 2 years foundation training, then did a year in A&E gaining more experience, then she did 3 years part one training as an anaesthetist, followed by a year as a locum mainly doing intensive care work (the post she was offered to do her next part of training was five hours away from her house and she didn't want to relocate as she was in a relationship, she's now doing her 4 years of part two training. She gets trained by a consultant but she trains and supervises the doctors junior to her. Without being dramatic, every day she is doing procedures that are potentially life threatening if she makes a mistake. It is not for the faint hearted! For what she does, the pay is pretty poor, the conditions of service are poor and trying to keep relationships going when you are working nights, weekends and bank holidays is very difficult. You need a very understanding partner. Fortunately she loves her job but her financial position is very different to most other junior doctors so pay is not an issue for her if it were, I think she's be much less happy.

This government has (in the words of Boris) spaffed billions of pounds on private contracts, millions on ex PMs and thousands creating an unelected Foreign Secretary. Doctors should be properly paid.
It isn't that long since people stood on their doorsteps clapping for these doctors and we can't now pay them properly. They deserve better.

25Avalon

The thing I have never understood is that doctors and nurses undertake their paid for training with no guarantee of a job afterwards. The dd of a friend trained as a medic with the army to cut costs and then had to work for two years as an army doctor. Why doesn’t the NHS do similarly?

1 Mar 2022 — A total of 791 applicants are on the 'reserve list' for foundation training this year, after not being allocated a placement for FY1.https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/almost-800-medical-graduates-unallocated-for-fy1-places/

Mainly because they have increased the number of undergraduate places without being able to increase the number of F1/F2 training places because there is a shortage of doctors. F1's need to be supervised and trained on the job.

Further information
YearNumber of applicants on the reserve list
201645
201725
2018202
2019425
2020260
2021494
2022791
Source: UK Foundation Programme
The govt's plan to introduce apprenticeship training for doctors is IMO, pretty pie in the sky. How on earth are they going to provide training and support for these students if they can't offer F1 places to newly qualified medics?

should be a gap between year and number!

Foxie48 sounds like Catch22. What’s the point in being given an undergraduate place if they then can’t be trained because of a shortage of doctors to so do

So, given the numbers foxie has set out, why are people seeking an undergraduate place and running up huge student debt if for years there has been a problem in getting a training placement? The law is similar - hugely over subscribed with many students having no hope of getting a training contract.

Germanshepherdsmum

So, given the numbers foxie has set out, why are people seeking an undergraduate place and running up huge student debt if for years there has been a problem in getting a training placement? The law is similar - hugely over subscribed with many students having no hope of getting a training contract.

I've no idea. My daughter decided to be a doctor when she was 7 and given a doctor's set for Christmas. She was very ill and had to have quite a serious operation when she was doing "A" levels and just missed getting a set of top grades so she didn't go straight to med school and tbh I thought she'd changed her mind but she hadn't. It's all she's ever wanted to do. My nephew's wife is a consultant surgeon, she never wanted to do anything else either. It is a vocation, I think, but that is not a reason to pay people poorly. I think a lot of people are attracted to the law because of the pay but a friend is a criminal defence barrister, her pay is pretty poor compared to most barristers but she is not money driven. OH's nephew was a very high powered investment banker but after 20 years he decided he'd rather use his skills in a different but more emotionally rewarding job. Thankfully, although we live in what seems to be a more acquisitive world, there are still people who remain pretty altruistic. Three members of the family work for National charities, poor pay but rewarding. Perhaps it's genetic!

Thanks for your informative posts foxie48.

Possibly genetic foxie - my paternal grandfather was a lawyer, so was I, so is my son.

Junior dr's are worth every penny, they save millions of lives every day, I am disgusted at the way this gov't runs the health service, they want it to fail so they & their mates can bring in an expensive private health care system.
The sooner we can vote this lot and get Labour in, they started the NHS in the 1st place & will fix it, the better

In your dreams.

A well resourced and respected NHS, GSM? Absolutely one of my dreams. Not yours?

What short memories a lot of people have. The Drs treated people with covid and many Doctors sadly diesd. We all including Boris clapped for the NHS. Staff.
Drs do so much unpaid overtime, if they all decided to leave work at the end of the shift the NHS would collapse. The independent pay board are told how much they can award to each group of staff. I support the junior Drs 100%

I can never understand how people think that they or their relatives will never need the expertise of doctors at some point in their lives.
The MPs have just had yet another pay rise.

IMO doctors should be valued and I would rather be treated by a well paid, well rested doctor than one struggling to make ends meet and tired out after working unreasonable hours.
BUT!!! anybody asking for 35% increase considering the present state of the economy is beyond common sense. My understanding is that they have been offered what amounts to a 12% salary increase already.
People are dying, struggling to live with painful problems and not even going to the doctors because of the state of the health 'service'. Have they no conscience?

Ilovecheese

If the Government wanted to end this strike they could. They don't want to because they want the public to blame the doctors and pave the way for privatisation.

You’re absolutely right. Like they want us to blame immigration and people on benefits for the state our country is in.