shocked!!!!

My mother told me her father used to chase her with his billiard cue. She said the worst time was when he swung it to hit her and broke it on the billiard table - and she laughed! She said she really thought he would kill her. Other people always thought he was such a nice man too.

Could be Petra, didn't mean to open the can. She does love her sons and is immensely proud of them. I just think that leading by example as children do as you do not as you say would be a better approach. We are all better parents in hindsight. They are at the seaside today after a picnic at a country house yesterday so the boys should be tired out. Bliss . I have them next weekend overnight. But I think that children always behave better for other people. We'll see. I may be eating my hat and bellowing like a fishwife by the end of the day

Seems we have moved onto a whole new area here, in talking about discipline.....

I was a long way from perfect ...... and also, I think, lucky ..... but have always said that if you don't have a child "where you want them" by the age of 5, then you have little hope of a respectful relationship when they are old enough to really argue back. The definition of that, for me, is that a child does as it is asked to do, and that lesson is learned very early on.

For me, it meant teaching 'action & consequences' from a young age. I did smack very occasionally in the 2-5 years but I never (hand on heart) smacked in anger, and my girls always 'chose' the route in that I would ask the child to stop whatever it was doing, I would ask a second time with the rider that if you do that again, I will smack. Third time, I smacked once on the leg or the hand ....never hard. It was not about pain but shock factor, & following through on what I had said, and I could probably count all incidents on two hands.
It was a rare event, and all about consequences if a line is crossed
By school age, I could just start counting to 5 .... and never once got there!

I do think though, that there must be a basis of mutual respect. It is a two-way street, and it is possible to ask children to do something rather than ordering, and possible to discuss rather than having to completely control every aspect of life. Both my girls were expert negotiators by the time they hit their teens. They had choices from the earliest days ^ (red coat or blue coat? shall we go to this shop or that shop, first? you can have pudding if you eat your main course). ^

Two things make me smile to this day 1) that my daughters were both almost adult before working out that I always started negotiating way higher than the point I was happy to settle at. 2) that they both now adore sprouts, having spent years with a negotiated 'just one' or their plates

As said, I was (and am ) a long way from perfect, but I do worry when I see mothers who can only control toddlers with violence and abuse - or fail to control them at all.

inthefields I can go along with what you have written. The only control over teenagers is, is that deep down they don't want to hurt you- their parent - or for you to be disappointed in them. To reach that you have to be strict and straight forward with them as small children, all the time giving them the feeling they are free to choose.
I had a shopping list on the wall. A wad of paper. When my girls were being really naughty I would draw a line. Then I threatened them.
'When I have drawn 5 lines I'm coming into your room and will thrash both of you no matter who is to blame' It never came to that of course, and I was relieved I never had to carry it out.

Lately my daughter said she had started this, and there was the paper with 2 lines on it stuck on the fridge door.
As you say we are not perfect and as Grandma I still make mistakes.

Blimey!

Isn't thrashing illegal these days?

Thrashing , that is quite appalling I would be ashamed to say that .

Flippin' 'eck!!! thrashing, WHAT? never!!! I was never thrashed and I would never thrash my children.

My father was brought up from the age of 7 (when his mother died) by his older sisters and brothers as his father was mostly working as a dreyman. He was the baby of the family and very loved - he, in turn, never hit my sister and I we loved and respected him and were told off when naughty but were never smacked or threatened with a smack. I grew up respectful and never in trouble. My mother was abused as a small child and her way of correcting us she seemed to learn from my father. She did get stressed and would become angry but I only remember her catching me around the legs with a wet tea towel when I cheeked her at around 13.

With my children I would withdraw privileges or time out (before it became popular with Supernanny) If I threatened "no sweets" if they misbehaved they knew I meant no sweets. Early to bed of naughty meant early to bed.

I was not and am not a perfect parent but I did the best I could.

I don't really think smacking is ever justifiable or helpful at all but we are all human and I can fully understand how it happens.

However I think a quick slap in anger is more understandable than a planned "If you don't do this in x seconds" I will smack you.
If you have time to count, you have time to think of a less physical sanction for the behaviour.

What is really wrong is "wait until your father gets home! If you have to say that you have clearly lost all control anyway.

I think it's MargaretX's use of the word 'thrashing' which causes shock. It implies a beating which is much different to a slap. Maybe there's just a confusion in terminology.

Nelliemoser - I would disagree with you on one point. IMHO a parent losing their temper (in anger) and smacking a child, crosses a line. The parent is, by definition, out of control at that point and channelling their anger at the child. How are children supposed to learn self-control when the parent is not in control of their own emotional response.

Having mentioned that I smacked, can I put that back into perspective - there were less than a dozen incidents between both my girls, all before they were age 5! We are talking a tap on the hand ..... and I do not approve, broadscale, of "hitting children".
There is also some difference in spin between "stop doing that"and "if you don't do this"..... I would never have smacked for being slow to pick up toys, eat meals, not get into bed quickly enough (all of which I was punished for as a child). I did smack a hand for continuing to try touching a plug socket (despite removal from the danger twice), also for throwing food (age 2) etc

I do, though, agree with you that threatening with delayed punishment by another parent is wrong on many levels, and seeing the word "thrash" actually made me shudder - a clear demonstration that we always need to choose our words with care.

Sometimes, as with touching a socket again and again despite being removed from the scene of the crime and told that it is dangerous, a light slap will reinforce the notion that the behaviour is most definitely not to be repeated. One of my cousins, as a small child, was fascinated by electric power points, and once poked a knitting needle into one despite being warned off repeatedly.

OK, now you can get plastic inserts to close off the holes, but at some point they have to take the lesson firmly to heart that certain things are not acceptable behaviour. The sooner the better.

I 'lost it' with my DGD1 yesterday. She was upset as i picked her up from school. Her mum was not well and I think she was a bit worried but continued to strop and whinge about anything and everything. After an hour I just yelled and made her sit on the floor away from me and her sister. After a few minutes she apologised, we had a cuddle and all went to play cricket in the garden!

Q: Should I have yelled and got v. cross at the fist sign of stroppy behaviour??????

Fof I understand what you are saying about the bellowing being much worse than simply shouting and I share your concern. I doubt if you would have brought the subject up unless it was something completely out of the ordinary.

I don't live near my GSs so don't see them on a daily basis but there have been a couple of things I have felt able to mention to my DS. One was that GS said 'Daddy gets angry with me' so I told my son and could see it affected him. I took the opportunity to mention that 'getting angry' should be saved for really dangerous things. On another occassion he emailed that GS had been naughty so I reminded him that what GS had done was naughty and that he was not. I wouldn't dream of commenting on any of these things to DiL.

When we do go and see them I try to show by my own example the way I prefer to deal with things which can be difficult. When he had a minor tantrum I used distraction which worked. They don't seem to insist on please and thank you but I hope that by seeing Mr Moved and me insisting on it they will start. I am always consistent and hope that they will pick up on that. I feel that is all I can do and that I shouldn't interfere although of course I am tempted. I don't know what else you can do without alienating your DiL and possibly you DS.

I do hope that it doesn't happen again.

As a teacher I have had to learn the art of expressing disapproval and even sounding angrey without losing my temper. Once you lose your emper you lose control, is what I was taught. Of ocurse it is harder with your own children because you care more about them and love them. I have a vivid memory of "losing it" with DDS when in her teens and shouting at her. She paused, and said calmly "Mum, have you any idea how ridiculous you sound?" A lesson I have never forgotten.

Margaret please don't encourage anyone to use the tactic of threatening a 'thrashing' along with a progression of drawn lines on paper, counting up to five, when the threat would be carried out. I shudder at the thought of any child wondering about such a threat, and feeling so intimidated by it. It's abusive.

Nanej - I think children need to learn where the boundaries are, and your DGC discovered where yours lies . It was not reached with the first incidence of stroppiness, because you understood that DGC was dealing with some issues, but did have its limit when the behaviours continued.

That's sounds not just OK, but perfectly fair, in my book.
Boundaries are good for kids

I do not think it is harmful to shout occasionally - children need to understand that sometimes they can push people too far - it is a valuable lesson I think and helps them to understand that they too are only human and these things are bound to happen.

Constant yelling is clearly not acceptable - it just becomes background noise and achieves nothing for anyone.

I very ,very rarely shouted at my family when they growing up .

I would not dream of shouting at any of my GC , in all honesty they are just such good children , don"t need shouting at .

Mind, I am not a pushover , I speak firmly when needed .

Still I cannot ever remember my Parents shouting at me !

Surely it is all about children learning the way things work in their own family, and where the boundaries lie for them. Providing they grow up feeling safe, happy and secure ....learning to be reasonable adults ....does it matter if one shouts or does not shout?

I have known really "healthy" families who were quiet, non-shouters ....and really noisey, shoutey, rumbustious families who were equally "healthy".
No-one shouted in my childhood home - but I lived most of it in fear.
My ex did not shout but could devastate me with a single sentence.

Shouting does not equate to unsafe, threatening or verbal abuse IF the children are secure in the knowledge that they are safe, un-threatened and not abused.

As a parent, I ran one of the noisier varieties of home ....lots of debates around the kitchen table, three conversations going on at once while cooking the dinner, children & friends always at the bottom of the garden when it was ready, dogs barking (or chasing the ducks) ......yes, I shouted!! As I've said before, my girls knew if I was cross because I would become very quiet (and use something they termed "the Paddington Stare"). A child from a non-shouting home would probably feel very threatened by yells. Mine knew that escalating voice meant nothing more than a mum getting seriously impatient.

It is strokes for folks. As long as the children are happy, secure, loved & safe AND THEY KNOW IT, then IMHO its each to is own.

Thrashing is the translation of what I said in German, probably a milder word like smacking would be better. Of course I have never thrashed anybody - and they knew it! I never hit them at all but I remember I put on a grim face and they got a bit of a thrill like watching today's videos.
When they were good again we forgot it.

Now they laugh about it BUT it worked. They controlled themselves. I helped them to learn to control themselves. Its called selfdiscipline.

Two boisterous boys of 4 and 2 can drive any mother to shouting.

I've always threatened my grandsons with turning 'em up and smacking their backsides. It works. (Couldn't actually do it now but they haven't twigged that)

I used to threaten my kids with the wooden spoon. I never used it of course but the drawer where it was kept used to squeak so that would stop them in their tracks. 'Who wants the wooden spoon?' became a catch phrase in our house.

I have to admit, I have never ever smacked my children and so would obviously never consider smacking my grandchildren. I do not believe any form of violence helps matters. I used distraction and any other non physical means of dealing with any problems we might have. I find it upsetting when I hear parents, shouting, swearing and smacking their children. I think it is no wonder we have such bullies at school because I think violence breeds violence. I don't like children being threatened with it either, why would you want to scare your kids like that, I think it is about control quite often and surely you should be able to deal with your children without resorting to physical means. My DD uses "Supernannys" naughty step, where you give a warning and say you will count to three and if they do not stop the relevant behaviour, they will go on the naughty step, chair or whatever, for 1 miute of each year of their life. DD has rarely got past two.

Isn't it interesting that Gransnet so perfectly reflects the national division of opinion on this sensitive subject - that those who do smack blame the ills of the generation on those who have not, those who do not believe in smacking see it as abuse, whilst those who sit on the fence and find the occasional tap acceptable ....are bewildered by both attitudes.

I am bowing out of this one, as I do think it is a case of never the twain shall meet ........ and the fencepost is becoming a tad uncomfortable