Are our views always entrenched?

On rereading the posts on here, I would say that the main difference between my vies and Juragrans is that she advocates disincentives to stay and I would use incentives to move.

Penalising people to get rid of them seems like corporate bullying to me. You catch more flies with honey than with treacle.

Spoilt that nice epigram by typing treacle instead of vinegar! Should have gone off and done something else when I first meant to!

Bags I live in a massive old house, in the boonies where there are no jobs, no infrastucture- lots of mountains and trees, cows and manure heaps. But we've bought it with the sweat of our hard work- it was the price of a 2 up-2-down terrasse in Leicester - and is out of the equation.

As said, life is not fair. If you are suggesting that we should all be equal and live in the same size house, etc, then we need to go back to Old soviet Union or DDR. We could argue the pros and cons, and having lived for a while in East Berlin, there are many there who yearn to go back to the old system, and I understand them. But this is not what we are talking about, is it? Now I'd be very happy to discuss if it is fair or not fair that some professionals and business people earn more than others- but again this is not the purpose of this thread, or is it? Fact is, we are not all the same - and many people I know who have built businesses and reached professional status DO NOT COME FROM PRIVILEGED BACKGROUNDS - ask Lord Sugar, and so many of the NHS and private consultants. As said before, people like my OH who have suffered great hardship get there by seer determination and hard work - without a bean to live on, sacrificing all to get there. Others with the same brains and opportunities (or lack of) do not - they make a different choice. Like my brother, same parents, same bringing-up, same opportunities, more intelligent- he went a different way. Why do some people want to work and succeed and others not - a hugely complicated issue- but to say that all who succeed come from privileged backgrounds, and that all who do not succeed, are totally not responsible for their choices, is just not correct. OH worked 130+ hours per week for several years when we were first married - and even at the end of his career worked a minimum of 90- so don't begrudge him his old farmhouse in the sticks. Many retirees move to FRance because property out in the sticks is so cheap. A 4 bed + barns and workshops and a huge amount of land in the Dordogne for sale for 185.000 Euros if you are interested

I cannot see how it is considered uncaring to suggest that flats in town centres and old industrial mills would be more suitable for older and younger people - and that families should have priority on houses with gardens.

Elegran if you read my recent posts, it should be clear that I advocate incentives and compensation, the carrot rather than the stick. Totally agree with you.

I've been having fun for the last 24 hours so have only just caught up with this thread but have some random thoughts:

Life is not fair - is there anything more true?

I think there already is a Trump Towers in New York but it is not social housing

No one seems to have responded to bluebell about the profit on selling a house, any house. I think that would be very hard to implement as it would be along the same lines as selling anything else on which you have made a profit, antique jewellery for example. There are already two property taxes: almost everyone who sells a house buys another one and the more they pay for that house the more tax they pay for the privilege of buying it; if they have a very expensive house then they will pay IHT on it as well after their death.

It is not quite as clear cut as some perhaps think that those who can afford buy and those who can't rent. Think of the well known union leaders who live in social housing. My MiL would have loved to buy a house but DiL had a horror of debt and always refused although they could have managed to pay for a small house. When right to buy came in we tried to convince him to buy but he stood firm - no debt. He was far from alone on his council estate. Many of us never considered applying for a council house as they were only for people with lots of 'points' which we understood to mean having been on the list for many years and with children. Since then single people have been given social housing which may have contributed to the shortage. Of course this is historical and things may be different now.

Just looked up 'rant' and one explanation is "To speak aggressively about something" and I don't think granjura did that, nor do I think such comments help a reasoned debate.

I don't find talk of 'toffs' or 'Old Etonians' particularly helpful. Presumably such people were elected because the voters in their constituencies thought they were the best candidates and any of them promoted to the cabinet be there because their leader believed they would do the job better than any of the others. On the whole we get the government we deserve.

I think we all have the choice to spend whatever we have in any way we choose whether that be to pay for our children's education, pay for medical care, go on cruises, go to the football, pub or theatre. There is no shame in having worked hard and achieved much as there is no shame in having worked hard and not achieved so much. The only shame is in not having tried. It is self evident that those who earn more have more choices but I wouldn't vilify them for that. I think it is a shame to make the comparisons.

It would be interesting to hear some views on the various suggestions we have put forward. I can't see the relevance to how hard somebody had to work - we have, I hope, all agreed that not everybody has the capacity, health or talent to have a high earning career - and not everybody wants one. There are plenty of dedicated people who work their socks off in the caring professions for very little pay. They won't become home owners or have a large pension, but they are no less valuable to society than the high fliers - in fact, some are probably more valuable than certain tycoons I could mention.
What about my suggestion about holiday homes - it seems hard to have them standing empty for most of the year when families need them. They are not all out in the sticks.
I don't know what more we can do to show that there are alternatives to forcing people to move or be financially punished when they can't - it would be nice if they were considered and debated.
Being labelled right or left wing is irrelevant - what matters is finding a solution that is not just a way of punishing people for something they can't help.

The only person who mentioned toffs was Juragran - I don't know why she did so as nobody else had said it.
Nobody has said that people should not be rewarded for hard work either.
I am glad you think all the cabinet are doing a good job, Moved, but obviously the vast majority of the electorate do not agree with you. I have just been watching Sky news and the 'Doing a good job' rating of all three party leaders is below 30%, I think. Are you really happy with Gove and Osborne, etc? I hope you are not relying on entrenched thinking!
Do you have any opinion on some of the suggestions for finding housing for the homeless - it is becoming desperately hard to get anyone to give one!

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So glad I have been planting tomatoes and tidying the greenhouse for the last hour or so. We are getting into the "you said/she said" phase of this thread, always a boring part.

Glad too that Granjura agrees that incentives work better than disincentives, and that everyone thinks that the housing situation needs a shake-up.

Having checked in to Gn I am now going to get something to eat, and to open a mysterious parcel that a neighbour took in while I was out yesterday. I remembering ordering something but I can't for the life of me remember what.

You didn't use the word toffs - but how close can one get, and this is not the first time. Children in Public schools are no more responsible for their choice of education as kids from an Estate in a sink inner-city school. And we all know how some of them suffered terribly - sent to boarding school aged 5 and abused and beaten by older pupils and masters. I wouldn't call this a privilege. So, I totally disagree with the politics of the present Government, but disagree on fact and deeds, not prejudice for their background, please. Prejudice is just as bad whichever side it comes from in my book.

Bags, it is possible to share a large house in very imaginative ways - and I won't go into detail here. But our house is shared by so many from the community, and this Summer with children from under-privileged homes, and from next September as a Youth and Homework club. And that is great- our choice though, I agree.

Here is the quote:

There is nothing anybody could tell me that would make me view this bunch of rich, privileged and selfish Old Etonians in any good light.

Read between the lines, and the many previous posts stating more or less the same thing.

I applaud anyone who has overcome a background/childhood that has been stifled in such a way as to leave them with entrenched, naive or unfairly prejudiced views. So, if a 'toff' recognises the unfair advantage they were given through no fault of ther own, and tries to rise above it by helping others less fortunate, they have my respect. I have no respect for the 'old boy network' who manoeuvre themselves into positions of power so they can continue to feather their own and each other's nests. Wealthy politicians should look closer to home before they think about turfing the less fortunate out of their's.

And it works the other way too when. DH was brought up in a very narrow way by parents who had little education but he worked hard and became very successful and his views on many things have changed over the years. I think most mature people, whatever their upbringing, would say the same.

Thing is, as I said before, it can be difficult to change views if you rarely or never meet people from very different backgrounds. Once you do, it is much harder to dismiss whole groups as 'toffs' or 'scroungers' - because you personally people in both groups and such prejudices have been broken. You'll find that people who are rabidly anti-muslims are usually people who do not know any Muslims. Or people who are so prejudiced against Public school students or ex-students, have never met any. And same for council tenants or people on any kind of benefit. I have to fight against this from both sides. I have many relatives who have been to top Public schools, and some nephews and nieces too. And their political views cover the whole spectrum, funnily enough. My Swiss cousins who were sent to boarding school aged 5 in the UK, are absolutely anti and totally left wing.

I guess that those here with such prejudice against Old Etonians, have never ever been in contact with any educated at Public School. Tony Benn is a great example - it is possible to have attended Eton or any Public School and yet be left wing. I hate this divisive system and would do away with all faith, private and so-called 'Public school' education - but attending does not make them automatically right-wing. And yes, I hate Ye Olde School network - and it is still alive and kicking. But so are so many other organisations which privilege members against others (but I won't go there.... been there, done that, and know what happens if you do..!). Unions in the 60s and 70s could well have been guilty of that too.

I think there is a network system far far more dangerous than the old boy / old Etonian one. If anyone else has read about the coverup for the dangerous mother and baby unit in Cumbria then it is so obvious that there were jobs for the boys/ girls on all these quangos. This lot of under qualified or inappropriately qualified people who have magicked pensions out of the NHS and others has left me with a feeling of this is why the country is in the state it's in. Every man for himself. I was so envious of Americans who had a president who said Ask not .....But what you......

I love the idea that I have never known any public school boys! I have had men friends from Harrow, Marlborough, Winchester and Rugby - they weren't all chinless wonders but it is not normally something of which I would boast. I also dated a Conservative MP - I got very odd looks when I took him to a Mensa dinner. Sorry to dint the stereotype of me as a kid from the back streets of Salford who doesn't know her place! I lived in Monaco for six years and was a member of the British Association and, believe me, you don't get any snobbier than that! (I only joined for the free social events.)
I repeat, as it doesn't seem to have sunk in the first time - I don't object to the cabinet on the grounds that they went to public schools, although I think it does seriously limit the amount of understanding they have of other people's lives) but to the fact that they all went to the SAME public school. How fortuitous that so many men who were in the Bullingham Club turned out to be ideal ministerial material!
I am surprised that you have not yet responded to any of our suggestions, Juragran - what is the point of raising this issue and then ignoring our genuine attempts to address it?

P.S. Why do you insist on using the word 'toffs' - it seems to be a ploy to discredit my views by suggesting that I hold an attitude which I don't .

Stansgran I have always loved that phrase from JFK ,

Ask not what your country can do for you , but what you can do for your country ?

We're certainly learning a lot about you today Greatn

Wow greatnan you certainly do have a bee in your bonnet about the "same school" issue don't you? Why does it annoy you so much? Does it really matter? I'm beginning to think that you are getting paranoid about it. Do you really think that GNetters are going to come up with, and effect implementation of, the solution? Just as an aside, my father went to Harrow and I attendedCheltenham Ladies College.

Well I would never have dreamt of mentioning your previous champagne lifestyle in Monaco, but since you have - didn't you feel at the time that it rather went against your left wing principles? I often wondered about that but never dared to ask- but since you mention it.

My quote shows clearly how you feel about Etonians and how prejudiced this is. The fact the ones you met was rather unfortunate- but why on earth did you stick to them for so long - it would have never attracted me, and I couldn't have stood it 2 minutes- but each to their own.

Again, just because of council estate inhabitants are rather unsavoury, should I come to the conclusion they all are. Of course not. My cousins, nephews and grand nephews and nieces with public school education are very pleasant people, and cover the whole spectrum politically.

I have replied - and said there are lots of great ideas about increasing the social housing pool, but that most of the suggestions were more suitable for older and younger people, and not families. I think I've said it more than once actually- and asked, again, where to suitably house families with children.

nonu yes, an improvement on his infamous "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech in Germany. But we digress I'm afraid.

Aka , yes we do but sometimes a little digression can be fun though , cannot it ? I will not mention prawn cocktails bye the way !!

Nor will I mention rabbit stew ..

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