Are our views always entrenched?

A fascinating thread, and what a good post 64.

My political views are pretty much the same as those described by 64, et al.

My religious views have changed. I left the church when I was about 17 and then returned ten or so years later having seen the work of the church in the Third World where I was working. And having read a bit of theology and coming to a mature understanding of the faith as a consequence.

I'm much less intolerant of Tories than I used to be! The one nation Tories I can sympathise with are those who greatly value individual freedom and whilst I take a different view, I can see where they are coming from. There is a Tory MP who was a GP, selected in open contest who speaks a lot of sense.

I loathe fundamentalists with a passion, and, having briefly flirted with IS in my youth am more convinced than ever that extreme positions are dangerous.

And in other matters too, I have modified my views. The influence of feminism has made me, and many, aware of concepts such as sexism which were unheard of in the 50s. In some ways I am more tolerant than I was in my youth, and in others more judgmental.

Of course politics and religion are about the great issues and therefore arouse great passions, so it's not surprising that they have dominated this thread but there are other matters where people change. For example I used to think wearing make up and fussing about fashion was frivolous. I don't think that any more! I used to think the Impressionists were wonderful. Now, I like those calm Dutch interiors. I used to like the Huddersfield Choral Society singing the halelluia chorus, now, unless it's a small choir with early instruments I can't listen to it.

But I've always been besotted with cats. Especially tabbies.

There are other views that may stick or change with experience. Such as: would infidelity end a relationship, should organ transplant be voluntary, does charity begin at home etc. I think yes to those particular points even though I might be persuaded otherwise ...the debate here shouldn't just hinge on our particular religious or political beliefs.

Joan reatnan Iam64 I am with you fully on this.

I echo Greatnan and Joans views on being left wing.
"When I say I am left wing.... "

Iam64s
"I'm very uneasy about any fundamentalist views from either religion, or angry atheists who talk about people with faith as though they aren't quite as bright, or are simply very needy people. "

I grew up with these views and morality. My dad was always a Labour voter. He took the step of joining the Labour party when he was 80.
I was brought up as a Methodist. I think the non-comformist bit was part of that culture of justice and fairness.
These ethics and attitudes of the importance of social equality and fairness have just seeped into my being. They come naturally to me.

I am not a believer but I would go to a funeral of someone I know whether religious or not despite my own views.
My parents both had a funeral at their Methodist church. That was what they would have wanted I would not choose this for myself.

My political views are very similar to the ones set out by greatnan. I sort of grew into them by my early teens and drove my (lovely) father slightly dotty by not becoming a tory by the time I was 30, as he believed all sensible people did. 33 years in working with offenders, and then with children and families confirmed my deep belief in what is currently called "early intervention". I loathe the way this government/co-alition has slashed and burned the children's centres, youth/mental health/drug/alcohol/domestic violence services. I am distressed by the removal of legal aid for those involved with the family courts. I still do a small amount of work, and am horrified by the number of families being persuaded to allow social workers to place their children in "voluntary care" - these families are denied legal advice, the children aren't before the court so don't have an independent children's guardian to instruct a solicitor and represent them in court. I could go on, but have probably over made by point.
My religious views are something I rarely discuss other than with my children, husband, my two sisters and a couple of very close friends. In recent months I've been to 3 funerals and my daughter's wedding. Two of the funerals were traditionally christian. One was for the father of my daughter's close friend, he had committed suicide, leaving his only daughter and former wife distraught, along with his extended family. The vicar was frankly wonderful in talking about this man's life. A very close friend died within 2 weeks of a diagnosis of cancer. He was in his 50's and the service was conducted by a humanist celebrant. It was a glorious way to get family and friends together to celebrate the life of a lovely man, and to mourn his passing. Our daughter and her husband had a civil ceremony, their choice and it was fantastic. The words they chose to use, the songs, the ceremony, it was a real celebration of life and love, and so personal, fabulous.

I'm very uneasy about any fundamentalist views from either religion, or angry atheists who talk about people with faith as though they aren't quite as bright, or are simply very needy people.

Great minds, Joan............

I meant one is a school teacher (third last line)

Greatnan you keep saying what I think - how do you DO that??? I'm thinking of this:-

^I wonder if there is any right wing member who would be prepared to do what my Christian friend has done - i.e. explain which policies they like, and why, and which ones they think are not so good. Perhaps we should start by defining our terms. When I say I am left-wing, I mean I care deeply about social justice, I think the state should care for the most vulnerable and least successful citizens, that justice should be free for all (which is why I feel so strongly about legal aid being removed in many family break up cases), that it is quite right for there to be laws against discrimination on the grounds of colour, race, sexuality, religion, or disability. I do not condone fraud, or irresponsible or criminal behaviour, but I think prison should attempt rehabilitation and education, and that prisoners should not be humiliated in addition to losing their freedom.
I think the cabinet should represent all sections of society, which it clearly does not at the moment.
Do our Conservative members feel that it was wise to cut the top rate of tax for the better off? Are they happy with the way ATOS seems to be working?
Are they aware that libraries, playing fields, swimming pools and playgrounds are being lost every week.
I know there is a world-wide recession, caused in part by the very poor regulation of the banks which occurred under both the last Labour government and this present government. However, I don't believe 'We are all in it together' - quite clearly,some people are still doing very nicely whilst others - the sick and disabled, the unemployed, single mothers, people in social housing, are afraid of the future.

I am more than ready to have all these statements challenged but not in the way of personal insults, please (I have been told too often that I am a loony lefty without anybody explaining what that means).

Surely we can debate these issues in a civilised and courteous manner, without either side taking offence. I won't say my views will be changed, but I won't rule out some better understanding of what it is about the Conservative party that people find desirable^.

I too would like our conservative members to tell us what it is about the right wing they like, and what they don't like. Calling someone loony left is like calling someone a 'do-gooder'. They are denigrating something without saying why. Why is it wrong to protect the vulnerable? Why would people sneer at those who volunteer to help with things like meals-on-wheels or charity shops, and call them go-gooders, as if helping out is bad?

Albert Camus says:
"The Right has ... ceded the moral response entirely to the Left, while the Left has ceded the patriotic response entirely to the Right," and he could be talking about anywhere in the West right now.
www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/review/the-idealist/story-fn9n8gph-1226658622383

I grew up in a household that debated everything and ran my own family the same way. My grown sons will probably do the same, in fact one is a school for 15-18 year olds. He teaches them to think and analyse and deconstruct the media.

We are all agnostic or atheist and politically to the left.

That's nice to know. It's a long time since I've been to any religious ceremony but I've seen some very interesting and charming clergy on the TV who have made me revise my opinion of clerics.

Even religious funerals can be less formal these days, with plenty of time for friends and family to speak about their memories of whoever has died. I think that the clergy are becoming more relaxed in their attitude to funerals - probably they have had to move with the times as well as everyone else.

The nice thing about leaving the church formality out of funerals is that they can be devised to reflect the life and personality of the deceased. That alone gives comfort to the bereaved. It takes a bit of organising but the days between death and funeral can be such a vacuum that this could be a lovely way to think and talk about the deceased and help the grieving process.

I am disappointed that none of our right wing members feel able to enter into a discussion with me.

When a friend died, his wife and sons held a memorial ceremony in the garden for friends and family. Everyone was invited to speak about their memories of him and we each released a balloon in his memory. Then the family went for a private cremation. Very informal and .... well, memorable.

Yes, Granjura so many people still feel they need to use churches and vicars and aren't aware of the wide choice of alternatives there are these days. I find church funerals sombre and rigid for my personal taste, and have good memories of humanist funerals that enable families and friends to be creative in remembering their loved ones. I think that those vicars who refuse to conduct ceremonies for people who don't attend when they could at least show their faces have a good point. It's clear enough what churches are for.

Quite when

Exactly, a Vicar is not an employee you just pay to provide the services you want. And indeed disrespectful imho, both to the Vicar, the Church, and to all believers. And I just to not understand why people who don't believe want Church ceremonies, based on lies, for the most important events of their lives???

A friend of my daughters got married recently. Been living together for 10 years, 3 young children, staunchly non believers - and then choose to have a big white Church wedding. I was happy of them, and would have attended if we had been in the country - but still thinking WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

feetlebaum it is great that knowing about the vastness and miraculousness of the universe and its wonders is enough for you. For other, perhaps less confident people, feeling that they don't matter in the huge vastness isn't quite enough and so they look for some personal meaning. Whether they are considered foolish or not, their perspective is just as real as yours. Though many organised religions have many faults they are an important part of life for some people. Hopefully we can all respect each other's world view. I have been on both "sides" of this debate over many years and though I have lost my own faith, I am happy that many people gain a great deal of comfort from it. Actually, I miss it!

It seems odd to me to request a vicar or a priest to officiate at any service and not expect some religious input. To do otherwise feels a bit insulting to the clergy in my opinion. If you want a non-religious marriage, baby naming or burial then there are several different options. When I arranged the funerals of my father and my son, both non believers, the undertaker lead the service and read the eulogy that I'd written. Both events were loving, thoughtful experiences.

I am not searching for anything - I have almost everything I want or need with one exception. I, too, find the physical universe quite awe-inspiring and it is enough for me.

Each to their own, Petallus

" I think a lot of us are maybe searching for something."

Isn't a universe containing trillions of stars, galaxies - an unthinkable number - enough? Admittedly, the Universe doesn't give two hoots about each and every one of us, or a single falling sparrow - but neither does anything else as far as we can tell... there is certainly no reason to think so, if you look about you at tragedy and disaster.

Since mankind first stood on two legs, we lived with fear, because we knew nothing. So they came up with stories, and those stories went on circulating for thousands of years - they became Horus, Zarathustra, Yahweh, Gilgamesh - each tribe passing the stories on to others. But know we have started to know something of the universe and our (very insignificant) place in it. We live lives that pass in a Universe blink... Stories told by shamans, hunters, gatherers and others have nothing to offer in the face of actual knowing - which is just another word for science.

My four penn'orth...

when maybe you aren't conspicuously silent but in a small group of 12 (at the funeral I mentioned earlier) DH was.

Some of the prayers are quite comforting. I the ritual of 'ashes to ashes, dust to dust'.

I don't mind mumbling the odd 'amen' along with everyone else.

Wisewoman, our posts crossed.

I understand Ella - but why oh why ask a VICAR to do this. A Vicar, has 'to do with religion' - that is their belief. Why ask a Vicar to officiate at a funeral without religion. It just does not make sense, sorry. Or a Church wedding without religion, or a Church baptism without religion? Why?

Don't understand why you would want a Catholic priest officiating at a funeral for someone who has no beliefs. There are wonderful humanist celebrants or you can do it yourself. LIke granjura I think it is odd to ask a Christian / Catholic priest to "do" a funeral and not mention God - unless of course the Catholic priest was a good friend of the deceased.

@granjura I was cross because the family member who arranged the cremation, was misled by the vicar.
I had nothing to do with the arrangements.

When my dad died and was cremated, I was introduced to a Catholic priest, who conducted the very short service exactly as I wished,and as my dad would have wanted it to be. No mention of religion.