Are our views always entrenched?

We organise our own funerals, music, speakers, the lot. Easier, cheaper and everyone involved knew the deceased well. You do not need to have an outside celebrant; religious or humanist.

I have changed all my beliefs over the years, about religion and politics.
My father was a lapsed Catholic and my mum was a Christian.
I started out being confirmed into the CofE, but by the time I was in my late teens I decided I was an agnostic.
Later I became an athiest, and now I would say I am an agnostic athiest.

However, I would really love to be able to believe in a god/father figure, who encompassed us all in love. I think a lot of us are maybe searching for something.

Our local Vicar is a really nice guy. As we've bought the old vicarage (the Church desperately needed money) and still welcome the elderly people from the village for the monthly luncheon, which he attends - we've got very friendly with him. We've discussed weddings. baptisms, funerals and first communions (still very popular here as big presents are given!) - and he, as have other very friendly Vicars I've known in the past, here and in UK- that it is very painful and difficult to hold ceremonies week in, week out - knowing that the participants are not believers in any way, shape or form, let alone not Church goers.

He was telling me the other day, the popular request these days is for a 'nice funeral please Vicar, but none of this religious stuff, will you'? I always cringe when you go to the funeral of a friend who you knew to be a staunch atheist and here all that Valley of Death and life Eternal, etc. I can feel them turning in the coffin. My instructions for my funeral are VERY clear, no Church, no Vicar and no lies on my grave.

Ella46, who were you cross with I wonder? To ask a Vicar to not talk about Jesus, the after life, etc, at a Christian funeral, is a bit much I think. Why ask a Vicar to do the ceremony at all, and the deceased was not religious??? This is what would make me cross, perhaps- not the Vicar. The Vicar believes in all that stuff, however it may seem strange to many of us- and it is his job to do a ceremony that reflects the beliefs of the Church he represents - not stand there with his fingers crossed behind his back? Surely?

Many of my friends are deeply and sincerely Christian- isn't it 'demeaning' of their faith to hijack it for social/cultural whatever means? Isn't it disrespectful for those present for whom the words and liturgy means something deeply religious and important to their lives? I think so- but I know many do not understand my point of view.

Once I'm dead how I am disposed of will be of no interet to me. I feel my family should decide on whatever will suit them best and meet their needs.

when H is an atheist, same as me. I used to do all the keeping conspicuously silent stuff when I was in my 50s, twenty years on and I've got over it and don't mind saying the odd prayer out of respect for the deceased.

And that is of course absolutely fine, if you don't care. But wouldn't you expect children to respect the wishes of a parent? As if they want to give organs, or their body to science. Or .. whatever. My cousin's daughter fell our with his sister after he died. He had asked to be cremated, quite clearly and firmly, although he was a sincere CAtholic - but his sister said he must not be cremated, as according to the Catholic Church 'he needs his body for the resurrection!!! They had a huge ding dong and the girls said his wishes were paramount, and went ahead.

granjura that must have been a long time ago. The Vatican lifted its ban on cremation in 1963. My father was one of a large and deeply catholic family. My grandparents were interred in 1966 and 1970 but every one since, and there have been many, has been cremated.

granjura that must have been a long time ago. The Vatican lifted its ban on cremation in 1963. My father was one of a large and deeply catholic family. My grandparents were interred in 1966 and 1970 but every one since, and there have been many, has been cremated.

I wonder if there is any right wing member who would be prepared to do what my Christian friend has done - i.e. explain which policies they like, and why, and which ones they think are not so good. Perhaps we should start by defining our terms. When I say I am left-wing, I mean I care deeply about social justice, I think the state should care for the most vulnerable and least successful citizens, that justice should be free for all (which is why I feel so strongly about legal aid being removed in many family break up cases), that it is quite right for there to be laws against discrimination on the grounds of colour, race, sexuality, religion, or disability. I do not condone fraud, or irresponsible or criminal behaviour, but I think prison should attempt rehabilitation and education, and that prisoners should not be humiliated in addition to losing their freedom.
I think the cabinet should represent all sections of society, which it clearly does not at the moment.
Do our Conservative members feel that it was wise to cut the top rate of tax for the better off? Are they happy with the way ATOS seems to be working?
Are they aware that libraries, playing fields, swimming pools and playgrounds are being lost every week.
I know there is a world-wide recession, caused in part by the very poor regulation of the banks which occurred under both the last Labour government and this present government. However, I don't believe 'We are all in it together' - quite clearly,some people are still doing very nicely whilst others - the sick and disabled, the unemployed, single mothers, people in social housing, are afraid of the future.

I am more than ready to have all these statements challenged but not in the way of personal insults, please (I have been told too often that I am a loony lefty without anybody explaining what that means).

Surely we can debate these issues in a civilised and courteous manner, without either side taking offence. I won't say my views will be changed, but I won't rule out some better understanding of what it is about the Conservative party that people find desirable.

No, 8 years ago. We still live in a very traditional and rural part of the world, and Catholics here still prefer to be buried. Indeed in parts of the country which still is predominantly Catholic, Protestants or other faiths cannot be buried at the local cemetary!

I don't keep 'conspicuously' silent, Petallus. I respect the rights of others to sing, pray or not. I would rather celebrate family and friends' important events somewhere else than a church, but if that's their wish, I don't make a fuss and go along with things so I can be with them. I think I would be less welcome if I made my non-belief conspicuous in front of them. Elsewhere is the place for such debates.

@granjura I was cross because the family member who arranged the cremation, was misled by the vicar.
I had nothing to do with the arrangements.

When my dad died and was cremated, I was introduced to a Catholic priest, who conducted the very short service exactly as I wished,and as my dad would have wanted it to be. No mention of religion.

Don't understand why you would want a Catholic priest officiating at a funeral for someone who has no beliefs. There are wonderful humanist celebrants or you can do it yourself. LIke granjura I think it is odd to ask a Christian / Catholic priest to "do" a funeral and not mention God - unless of course the Catholic priest was a good friend of the deceased.

I understand Ella - but why oh why ask a VICAR to do this. A Vicar, has 'to do with religion' - that is their belief. Why ask a Vicar to officiate at a funeral without religion. It just does not make sense, sorry. Or a Church wedding without religion, or a Church baptism without religion? Why?

Wisewoman, our posts crossed.

when maybe you aren't conspicuously silent but in a small group of 12 (at the funeral I mentioned earlier) DH was.

Some of the prayers are quite comforting. I the ritual of 'ashes to ashes, dust to dust'.

I don't mind mumbling the odd 'amen' along with everyone else.

" I think a lot of us are maybe searching for something."

Isn't a universe containing trillions of stars, galaxies - an unthinkable number - enough? Admittedly, the Universe doesn't give two hoots about each and every one of us, or a single falling sparrow - but neither does anything else as far as we can tell... there is certainly no reason to think so, if you look about you at tragedy and disaster.

Since mankind first stood on two legs, we lived with fear, because we knew nothing. So they came up with stories, and those stories went on circulating for thousands of years - they became Horus, Zarathustra, Yahweh, Gilgamesh - each tribe passing the stories on to others. But know we have started to know something of the universe and our (very insignificant) place in it. We live lives that pass in a Universe blink... Stories told by shamans, hunters, gatherers and others have nothing to offer in the face of actual knowing - which is just another word for science.

My four penn'orth...

Each to their own, Petallus

I am not searching for anything - I have almost everything I want or need with one exception. I, too, find the physical universe quite awe-inspiring and it is enough for me.

It seems odd to me to request a vicar or a priest to officiate at any service and not expect some religious input. To do otherwise feels a bit insulting to the clergy in my opinion. If you want a non-religious marriage, baby naming or burial then there are several different options. When I arranged the funerals of my father and my son, both non believers, the undertaker lead the service and read the eulogy that I'd written. Both events were loving, thoughtful experiences.

feetlebaum it is great that knowing about the vastness and miraculousness of the universe and its wonders is enough for you. For other, perhaps less confident people, feeling that they don't matter in the huge vastness isn't quite enough and so they look for some personal meaning. Whether they are considered foolish or not, their perspective is just as real as yours. Though many organised religions have many faults they are an important part of life for some people. Hopefully we can all respect each other's world view. I have been on both "sides" of this debate over many years and though I have lost my own faith, I am happy that many people gain a great deal of comfort from it. Actually, I miss it!

Exactly, a Vicar is not an employee you just pay to provide the services you want. And indeed disrespectful imho, both to the Vicar, the Church, and to all believers. And I just to not understand why people who don't believe want Church ceremonies, based on lies, for the most important events of their lives???

A friend of my daughters got married recently. Been living together for 10 years, 3 young children, staunchly non believers - and then choose to have a big white Church wedding. I was happy of them, and would have attended if we had been in the country - but still thinking WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

Quite when

Yes, Granjura so many people still feel they need to use churches and vicars and aren't aware of the wide choice of alternatives there are these days. I find church funerals sombre and rigid for my personal taste, and have good memories of humanist funerals that enable families and friends to be creative in remembering their loved ones. I think that those vicars who refuse to conduct ceremonies for people who don't attend when they could at least show their faces have a good point. It's clear enough what churches are for.