Are our views always entrenched?

When a friend died, his wife and sons held a memorial ceremony in the garden for friends and family. Everyone was invited to speak about their memories of him and we each released a balloon in his memory. Then the family went for a private cremation. Very informal and .... well, memorable.

I am disappointed that none of our right wing members feel able to enter into a discussion with me.

The nice thing about leaving the church formality out of funerals is that they can be devised to reflect the life and personality of the deceased. That alone gives comfort to the bereaved. It takes a bit of organising but the days between death and funeral can be such a vacuum that this could be a lovely way to think and talk about the deceased and help the grieving process.

Even religious funerals can be less formal these days, with plenty of time for friends and family to speak about their memories of whoever has died. I think that the clergy are becoming more relaxed in their attitude to funerals - probably they have had to move with the times as well as everyone else.

That's nice to know. It's a long time since I've been to any religious ceremony but I've seen some very interesting and charming clergy on the TV who have made me revise my opinion of clerics.

Greatnan you keep saying what I think - how do you DO that??? I'm thinking of this:-

^I wonder if there is any right wing member who would be prepared to do what my Christian friend has done - i.e. explain which policies they like, and why, and which ones they think are not so good. Perhaps we should start by defining our terms. When I say I am left-wing, I mean I care deeply about social justice, I think the state should care for the most vulnerable and least successful citizens, that justice should be free for all (which is why I feel so strongly about legal aid being removed in many family break up cases), that it is quite right for there to be laws against discrimination on the grounds of colour, race, sexuality, religion, or disability. I do not condone fraud, or irresponsible or criminal behaviour, but I think prison should attempt rehabilitation and education, and that prisoners should not be humiliated in addition to losing their freedom.
I think the cabinet should represent all sections of society, which it clearly does not at the moment.
Do our Conservative members feel that it was wise to cut the top rate of tax for the better off? Are they happy with the way ATOS seems to be working?
Are they aware that libraries, playing fields, swimming pools and playgrounds are being lost every week.
I know there is a world-wide recession, caused in part by the very poor regulation of the banks which occurred under both the last Labour government and this present government. However, I don't believe 'We are all in it together' - quite clearly,some people are still doing very nicely whilst others - the sick and disabled, the unemployed, single mothers, people in social housing, are afraid of the future.

I am more than ready to have all these statements challenged but not in the way of personal insults, please (I have been told too often that I am a loony lefty without anybody explaining what that means).

Surely we can debate these issues in a civilised and courteous manner, without either side taking offence. I won't say my views will be changed, but I won't rule out some better understanding of what it is about the Conservative party that people find desirable^.

I too would like our conservative members to tell us what it is about the right wing they like, and what they don't like. Calling someone loony left is like calling someone a 'do-gooder'. They are denigrating something without saying why. Why is it wrong to protect the vulnerable? Why would people sneer at those who volunteer to help with things like meals-on-wheels or charity shops, and call them go-gooders, as if helping out is bad?

Albert Camus says:
"The Right has ... ceded the moral response entirely to the Left, while the Left has ceded the patriotic response entirely to the Right," and he could be talking about anywhere in the West right now.
www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/review/the-idealist/story-fn9n8gph-1226658622383

I grew up in a household that debated everything and ran my own family the same way. My grown sons will probably do the same, in fact one is a school for 15-18 year olds. He teaches them to think and analyse and deconstruct the media.

We are all agnostic or atheist and politically to the left.

I meant one is a school teacher (third last line)

Great minds, Joan............

My political views are very similar to the ones set out by greatnan. I sort of grew into them by my early teens and drove my (lovely) father slightly dotty by not becoming a tory by the time I was 30, as he believed all sensible people did. 33 years in working with offenders, and then with children and families confirmed my deep belief in what is currently called "early intervention". I loathe the way this government/co-alition has slashed and burned the children's centres, youth/mental health/drug/alcohol/domestic violence services. I am distressed by the removal of legal aid for those involved with the family courts. I still do a small amount of work, and am horrified by the number of families being persuaded to allow social workers to place their children in "voluntary care" - these families are denied legal advice, the children aren't before the court so don't have an independent children's guardian to instruct a solicitor and represent them in court. I could go on, but have probably over made by point.
My religious views are something I rarely discuss other than with my children, husband, my two sisters and a couple of very close friends. In recent months I've been to 3 funerals and my daughter's wedding. Two of the funerals were traditionally christian. One was for the father of my daughter's close friend, he had committed suicide, leaving his only daughter and former wife distraught, along with his extended family. The vicar was frankly wonderful in talking about this man's life. A very close friend died within 2 weeks of a diagnosis of cancer. He was in his 50's and the service was conducted by a humanist celebrant. It was a glorious way to get family and friends together to celebrate the life of a lovely man, and to mourn his passing. Our daughter and her husband had a civil ceremony, their choice and it was fantastic. The words they chose to use, the songs, the ceremony, it was a real celebration of life and love, and so personal, fabulous.

I'm very uneasy about any fundamentalist views from either religion, or angry atheists who talk about people with faith as though they aren't quite as bright, or are simply very needy people.

Joan reatnan Iam64 I am with you fully on this.

I echo Greatnan and Joans views on being left wing.
"When I say I am left wing.... "

Iam64s
"I'm very uneasy about any fundamentalist views from either religion, or angry atheists who talk about people with faith as though they aren't quite as bright, or are simply very needy people. "

I grew up with these views and morality. My dad was always a Labour voter. He took the step of joining the Labour party when he was 80.
I was brought up as a Methodist. I think the non-comformist bit was part of that culture of justice and fairness.
These ethics and attitudes of the importance of social equality and fairness have just seeped into my being. They come naturally to me.

I am not a believer but I would go to a funeral of someone I know whether religious or not despite my own views.
My parents both had a funeral at their Methodist church. That was what they would have wanted I would not choose this for myself.

There are other views that may stick or change with experience. Such as: would infidelity end a relationship, should organ transplant be voluntary, does charity begin at home etc. I think yes to those particular points even though I might be persuaded otherwise ...the debate here shouldn't just hinge on our particular religious or political beliefs.

A fascinating thread, and what a good post 64.

My political views are pretty much the same as those described by 64, et al.

My religious views have changed. I left the church when I was about 17 and then returned ten or so years later having seen the work of the church in the Third World where I was working. And having read a bit of theology and coming to a mature understanding of the faith as a consequence.

I'm much less intolerant of Tories than I used to be! The one nation Tories I can sympathise with are those who greatly value individual freedom and whilst I take a different view, I can see where they are coming from. There is a Tory MP who was a GP, selected in open contest who speaks a lot of sense.

I loathe fundamentalists with a passion, and, having briefly flirted with IS in my youth am more convinced than ever that extreme positions are dangerous.

And in other matters too, I have modified my views. The influence of feminism has made me, and many, aware of concepts such as sexism which were unheard of in the 50s. In some ways I am more tolerant than I was in my youth, and in others more judgmental.

Of course politics and religion are about the great issues and therefore arouse great passions, so it's not surprising that they have dominated this thread but there are other matters where people change. For example I used to think wearing make up and fussing about fashion was frivolous. I don't think that any more! I used to think the Impressionists were wonderful. Now, I like those calm Dutch interiors. I used to like the Huddersfield Choral Society singing the halelluia chorus, now, unless it's a small choir with early instruments I can't listen to it.

But I've always been besotted with cats. Especially tabbies.

What is "IS", mice?

My view of large charities has changed. I think some of them have become too large, with a consequently large bureaucracy. It's not that I don't still support the work they do, but I no longer like all their tactics for achieving the ends they desire. Too often there seems to be the attitude that the end justifies the means. I don't agree with that if the means is, for example, intrusive (call centre fundraising and chugging), or if the charity gets too involved in politics.

It's quite a difficult feeling to deal with, this gut feeling that all is not well with certain charity activities and attitudes to their donors, but it is a gut feeling that all is not well and it is significant because it makes me unwilling to continue donating to charities whose work I support but whose fundraising activities I deplore.

International Socialists. An extreme Trotskyite tendency on the left. Splintered, splintered and splintered again. The SWP was an offshoot and many more. No idea if they still exist. I expect so. Haven't belonged to a political party since I left the Labour Party over Iraq.

I am more than happy for the debate to be widened, but I would particularly be interested to hear from self-confessed Conservatives why they support the party's policies. I am not looking for an argument - I am genuinely interested in what they think. Or perhaps some former Tory supporters have become as disillusioned as many former Labour voters , including myself, now are.
Come on, right wingers, have your say. (No, I realise you don't have to, before anybody points it out, this is purely an invitation.)

Mice you sound very open-minded. I think this is the key to not getting stuck in the mud at any age. A friend and I often talk about what we will be like when we are older, she knows more much older people than I do, including family. She believes we will all get stuck in our ways and insist that meals must be at certain times, shopping on certain days and everything in a routine. I hope she is wrong and suggest that those of our parents age had far more limited lives than we did which has resulted in their need for the routine. DH and I love to do things on impulse, drop plans if someone needs us or if we get a better offer. We eat to fit in with our plans rather than because it is a certain time of day.

Likewise we have changed our priorities as we have matured. We had distinctly different and entrenched political views when we met and both of us have mellowed since and neither of us is now entrenched. The trouble with commenting on things political is that in most cases we really don't know enough to be certain we are right. Yes, if you are a doctor you know enough about that part of the NHS or if you are a teacher you know about your part of education but none of us knows enough to be right about everything any political party does. Yes, we can research a particular subject but even then whatever we read may have been written by someone with an agenda. I think we all know the outcome we would like but how to achieve it is much more difficult! What one of us thinks is common sense appears different to another.

I wonder how many of us former left-wingers are now homeless in political terms? I also left the Labour Party over Iraq but I was already disillusioned by New Labour. I was in a constituency that changed hands quite often but recent boundary changes mean it's very unlikely any party except Labour will get in here. I no longer think Tory policies are automatically wrong so I suppose in that sense I do support some. I can't think of any at the moment, though! And most still make me spitting mad. Sorry, Greatnan, not a contribution to your inquiry.

Count me in to those adrift from political parties we used to identify with. I was euphoric when New Labour got in and by the time Tony Blair was losing favour, I couldn't find any one party I would feel confident about voting for. I hope Red Ed and co get their act together before the next election, but I really don't like most of them - perhaps Alan Johnson has what it takes?

Don't think that either the Christians or Tories are going to be goaded this time

Most of us who've always been on the 'side of justice and fair treatment for the poor, etc' realised a long time ago that Old Labour was doomed- and were delighted when New Labour was elected. Then we got into this awful war, and things changed. It would be interesting to know what would have happened if the Irak situation had not happened.

But it is all very nice wanting justice and fair treatment for all - but it has to be balanced. Most of us have realised that it is 'easy' to just sit in opposition all the time, carping about this and that. But if we want a great NHS, a great education system and social welfare, the money has to come from somewhere. Who is going to pay for it at the end of the day. So constantly tearing apart anybody who has the oomph, gumption, guts and intelligence to put a good business together, give employment to many, pay good taxes, and yes, make a few and more bob on the way, is not going to cut the mustard.

As said before, we can all agree that the *ankers got us in this mess- and agree that NO, we are not 'all in this together' at the same level - and yet, also agree that we are in a mess, and that something has to be done- and just as with the Unions, things have to be shaken up, so that welfare and benefits truly go to those who deserve it most. We can't just go on printing more and more money we haven't got - and somehow many things will have to be tackled. Tax fraud and evasion first, of course. But cuts will ahve to be made elsewhere too, and benefits will have to be revised to ensure fraud is tackled at that end too. Even Labour agrees that will just have to be done- no way around it. And yes- we can't on the one hand say that families matter, including those with many children - and then say that they should live in single room bedsits and hotels- whilst older people stay in over large family accommodation. Let's hope Labour if they get in will address the fact that suitable 1 and 2 bed accom need to be built URGENTLY and take into account the needs of older people who do not need their larger houses need to me moved together to keep the community spirit. But sadly, Old Labour principles just will not work in the present situation - and spending has to be cut down and optimized. Not the way it is being attempted now- but more sensitively and with a much better understanding of the real needs out there. But ... is anybody saying we can just keep on printing money ... whoever is responsible for this mess, we are in it - line, hook and sinker - and pretending otherwise is not helping. At all.
But of course sitting on that high fence and saying NO to everything is much easier - tackling the issues and finding solutions in the present mess we are in is an almost impossible task.

Goaded? Because I would like them to share their views? What a strange way of looking at things.

Well I'm a Christian, and I responded... I didn't feel goaded. Just an interesting request for responses from everyone.

An invitation to discuss different views is not goading, Moved. I genuinely want to read about beliefs that I don't share, and I would appreciate wider discussions than about tories, lefties, atheists and christians. Surely, with 15,000 members, there are some Gransnetters from non-eurocentric cultures who are feisty and want to have their say. I have Muslim and Jewish friends and acquaintances who don't stop for breath when we are together, and they would make fantastic contributions on here, were they to join. I would add, no matter what we disagree on, we have so much more in common, here on Gransnet.

As the request/invitation was issued three times with no response I would have thought that it was fairly obvious that people were not going to rise to the bait. Time to move on maybe?

Why goaded?

I have never joined a political party but am broadly 'socialist' in politics. This is because I was brought up to believe that we should treat others as we would want to be treated and for me this equated more closely to socialism/old labour politics. I remember havein huge debates at school and youth clubs about politics n the 60s ad had opportunity to join Young Conservatives etc etc but chose a different route. New labour was a huge disappointment. I have many friends who are also socialist but maybe more entrenched than me. I am able to socialise and mix with people who have radically different views to my own which some friends find hard to do. I enjoy GN because I see the differing views and opinions of others (except on this thread!). I can see how some Labour policies did not not have the desired outcomes in the longer term and I defy any Tory to say all Tory policies did! On the whole I prefer the socialist path.

I was brought up as a Christian (Methodist /Anglican mix) and regularly went to church. I value the cultural heritage I gained from this experience and tbh if I did not have to believe in God I would be a church member as I enjoyed the community it provided! However I was put off organised religion by a miserable old vicar ( I know there are loads of lovely priests too) and then explored other philosophies and ended up as a Humanist!
My younger brother chose to be baptised into the Baptist church at 17 and is a lay preacher and v active in his local baptist church. We get along very well!