Ding Dong .... round 2

As for defence, our Armed Forces have been cut back to the minimum. Our new aircraft carriers are being built to carry French planes. If that is not to build up a European Defence Force I don't know what is

My thoughts exactly - and given how many times Clegg used the words 'isolated' and 'terrorist/criminals' to instil a level of fear or apprehension, he believed was adding weight to his argument. It's about time the ruling by fear stopped.

It makes you wonder how countries that aren't in the EU manage to survive!

Hitler did not spring fully-fledged as the leader of the Third Reich. He started off small, was elected leader of his party known as the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (abbreviated as DAP – German Workers' Party). He played on the discontent in Germany by finding a scapegoat for the unemployment and economic downturn, through his rhetoric. He mixed fact with fiction and exaggeration. In this way he persuaded the gullible, the xenophobe, the intolerant and the greedy and played on people's fears.

Sounds familiar?

Don't they all mix fact with fiction? I knew a lady who because of her Government job attended an EU meeting in 2000. She said that at that meeting it was discussed which role EU countries were to have. Germany was to be manufacturing, France agriculture and the UK IT. So look carefully when wondering why our manufacturing business has declined and look to see where it has gone. Look at the way our farmers have been paid subsidies to stop producing and look at how French farmers are supplying milk etc. to our supermarkets. It is a very subtle shift that goes unnoticed. Next they will build on our farm land. Soon there will be no going back.

Sounds like a lot of politicians, Aka. I think comparing Nick Farage to Hitler is ridiculous - UKIP aren't going to start advocating mass murder however much support they gain.

Neither did Hitler at the start.

I can't believe some of you actually seem to be serious about this!

Farage may not be a potential Hitler but he is a demagogue, banging the drum for one particular 'little Englander' policy, so hard that there is rarely any clear evidence behind his arguments. Nick Clegg never stood a chance and he (and his so-called advisers) should have had the nous to know that.

Clegg was on a hiding to nothing. Farrage is an excellent showman, and like Clegg in the leadership debates with Brown and Cameron, hasn't yet been put in a position of having to defend policies that are unpopular. I wouldn't like Farage as PM, or having any more power than Ukip has currently, but he and his merry gang are certainly stirring things up. He and Boris, and other mavericks like them are entertaining but as anno is right about the demagogue little englander approach to life.

Every potential Hitler starts somewhere. Raise one section of the community onto a pedestal, put the blame for the problems on another, before you kow it, it is a case of

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me. "

Chilling quotation, Elegran.

Isn't Farage over dominant in his own party too? Is there anyone else of worth? Government should be more than about one person.

What was wrong in this debate was that it became personal and the subject of the debate forgotten. Would any of you like to put your views for or against remaining in the EU. Please convince me that it is the right thing to do. This was not meant to be a Political Party broadcast for either Party, but a debate on the pros and cons of remaining in the EU. The point of it was missed entirely.

GadaboutGran there is that Neil Hamilton character who has the bossy wife!

I voted for the Common Market because I believed in my naïveté it meant free trade between the countries. I never dreamt it would govern us with rules and regulations. I've yet to be convinced about staying in and am sorely tempted to vote for opting out. To be honest though I find either option scary

I was against it at the referendum because I could see there being a lot of bureaucracy.....but I am very unsure about getting out now we are in.
WE could lose out badly.

I voted to join the EU and I don't believe it's in our interests to leave either.

I voted to join the Common Market. European Union wasn't mentioned in those days was it?

What exactly do you think we would lose if we came out? At the moment we are not allowed to trade with the rest of the world without going through Brussels. The rest of the world is still there to trade with, but we have lost some of the loyalty which we had before. We were a great manufacturing country pre-EU, why could we not be one again? Why do our politicians want to fill you with fear about what may or may not happen? Our farmers could start to produce food again while we still have some land to do it with.

The whole EU set up is geared to become a United States of Europe. Is that what you want? the only way that will work is for all states to be equal. Equal pay, equal benefits, equal standard of living. To achieve that the poorer ones must improve and better off must drop. They will meet somewhere in the middle. Only then will it work. Open borders is the start of this. It will be the biggest leveler, we already have a lower standard of living and wages are dropping. When all states are equal people will have no need to go to another country to work, unless they have a special skill that is needed. It will be a long and hard road until all are equal, but we will never be a wealthy country again.

I am another who wholeheartedly voted for a common market, but not fiscal and political union. I do not in any way consider myself a "Little Englander" both my parents being only part English, a lot of my extended family live overseas, my first husband was foreign. I do not live on a diet of Brown Windsor Soup, boiled cabbage or have dreams of England being a superior nation that still rules the world. I wish Nick Clegg would stop droning on in that "the whole world has moved on" mode as if anyone who doesn't embrace the idea of the United States of Europe is living in some bygone time warp and is suspicious of all things foreign. We don't like the European Union as it is because it is undemocratic even the late great Tony Benn subscribed to that point of view. We have been told that we are unlikely to get the changes that would make it more palatable to much of the electorate.

When I go over to Europe I want it to be bloody foreign that's why I'm going there, God forbid we all end up some homogenised mass, there are distinct differences between England and the rest of Europe, it's something to celebrate, it's called diversity.

I find the idea that Nigel Farage may at some stage in the future turn into some dictator figure laughable. He has in fact pointed out that the far right is alarmingly on the march in some member states. The majority party in Hungary is overtly anti semitic and also waged hate campaigns against the Roma gypsy population. Yet these are the people that we are expected to climb into bed with and Nick Clegg seems to believe that Europe will be a safer place affiliating ourselves with political parties that hold views akin to Adolf Hitler. The reason why Nigel Farage resonates with some is that they feel patronised by the career politicians who daily demonstrate the contempt they feel for the ordinary people of this country.

England has been great in assimilating many different people for centuries, I wouldn't be here today if my grandfather and various great grandparents hadn't decided to settle in England, but previous immigration was gradual not the tidal wave that we have had over the last few years. Undoubtedly there have been positives, but there have been downsides too, lack of affordable housing, lack of school places, hot housing, people trafficking, towns where locals feel displaced, unscrupulous gangmasters, exploitation wages. Deborah Orr recently wrote in the Guardian that the real scandal Labour should be focusing on is not the cost of living but the appalling way some employers treat their staff now. I gather our Business Secretary has done very little to get rid of the disgusting zero hour contracts.

These are very real concerns that many people wish to discuss. We are also frequently told that many British people are dependent on jobs in Europe, I can't help feeling that a lot of those would be high fliers and would possibly have the credentials to work in any part of the world. I would like to know how many ordinary people from this country, such as tradespeople and those who would wish to go to work in cafes and shops manage to secure employment in mainland Europe.

The nuts and bolts are not discussed enough and our politicians exude an attitude that the little person is too stupid to be given a referendum. Nigel Farage may not be ideal but he has stepped into a void that has been waiting to be filled.

Good post, BAnanas - although it might have been more diplomatic to substitute 'Britain' for 'England'!

Yes probably should have stated Britain, but was following on from "Little Englander"

I think that's what annoyed me most about the 'so called' debate and following conversations here. The fact that before any of us can actually make a logical decision such as In or Out, we need the true facts. It was turned into a slanging match about political parties instead. Nick Clegg never did give one good reason why we should stay in. It was all 'Let's run each other down' when I really wanted a discussion about the EU.

I do feel that we should all be either right in, or right out. We either believe in it, or we don't. All we have done so far is sit on the fence. I do not believe that we can negotiate to get more control of our own country and I do not believe that we will ever have a referendum unless UKIP get in. Nigel Farage is someone whose main job is at the centre and is aware of what is going on.

Farage may not be a potential Hitler but he is a demagogue

I see most politicians in that light and given Clegg's constant referrals to terrorism, criminals, loss of jobs/income it would seem he also falls into that bracket.

banging the drum for one particular little Englander policy,

I hear that term (BIB) quite a lot and although it is blatantly obvious it is meant as a slur, what is wrong with the people of England wanting to put England first?

Excellent post BAnanas

It was turned into a slanging match about political parties instead. Nick Clegg never did give one good reason why we should stay in. It was all 'Let's run each other down' when I really wanted a discussion about the EU

I felt that as far as politicians go, it was a huge stride forward to actually discussing the matter at hand. Farage did show Clegg up for being a little frugal with the truth at the previous meeting (not that it would have surprised anyone) and Clegg floundered as to how to respond so just rubbished what Farage had said but without offering any form of proof. I know which of the two I would believe.