Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Attempts to stifle debate and free speech are taking us down a very slippery slope;

But there must be rules a the BBC[the same with every employer] about what a broadcaster can say and not say while not at work?

Don't believe everything you read on GN ....pass it through a reality filter first.

True Anya. True. I am trying!

Anyway I'd better get moving as I've thing to do, places to go and people to meet.

Same here.

Anya, I'm glad I have a business to run and a job to go to. Looking at the amount of time you spend on here, it appears this is where you devote your time. I'm not offended at all at what you think of me. I was just sharing my own thoughts as are the other posters. If anyone seems offended, that person seems to be you. Time to breathe into the brown paper bag if you don't mind me saying. Enjoy your day!

08.46.14. x post

Commenting on the issue, a BBC spokesman said: "Jenni Murray is a freelance journalist and these were her own views, however we have reminded her that presenters should remain impartial on controversial topics covered by their BBC programmes."

So the BBC are right?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39173398

What makes the BBC think it has the right to control what views its employees express in the written media FFS??
It's not as though she made these remarks on Woman's Hour. It was in a newspaper

Do these stricture apply to all employees or just high-profile ones?

Lucky Well what saddens me is that vulnerable women prisoners were sexually exploited by a 'trans woman ' prisoner with a penis; that women in a women's refuge ( in Canada) were sexually assaulted by a self identifying trans woman with a penis; that violent crimes committed by trans women are being recorded as crimes committed by women; that safe women only spaces such as changing rooms are being threatened; that we won't be able to specify( if that's our wish) that we want a 'real woman' to carry out our cervical smear or discuss our vaginal dryness or sexual dysfunction problems; that gay women who refuse to have a trans woman with a penis as a sexual partner are accused of being transphobic ; that women only sports events and other competitions are under threat; that women are now supposed to accept being defined as not being a trans woman by being described as a cis woman; that all our hard won rights as women are under threat by a well organised group of misogynists ( many with penises) . Yes, there's plenty to be sad about as we sleepwalk into a topsy turvey Humpty Dumpty world where any man can decide to be a woman and we women are just being precious snowflakes who should just 'suck it up' ( probably literally).

I like to keep you on your toes, anya

This is Danielle (formerly Dave) Muscato: www.daniellemuscato.com/

Make no mistake: what you see is a picture of Danielle POST transition. Danielle feels like a woman, and that that's all the transition needed.

I admit struggle with the concept of Danielle and her penis in my sports club changing room. I wouldn't if she'd had the surgery.

Until recently, I had assumed that most transwomen fully transitioned ('bottom surgery'). But only 20-30% do.

But JM was not speaking for the BBC when she expressed her opinion. She was speaking for herself. And even when she's presenting a BBC programme like Woman's Hour, she's surely allowed to express her own personal opinion. Why ever not? She's not the mouthpiece of the BBC. So long as it,s clear that it's a personal opinion she's expressing, the BBC has nothing to fear.

And they can always give disclaimers to cover employees' opinions.

I first encountered "lady boys" (their term, not mine) in Thailand. The ones I saw had a certain apparently female beauty. Until they moved. Men walk from the shoulder and women walk from the hip. I don't think any surgery can change that because their bones, muscles and basic physiology have already formed before they have any gender surgery or hormone treatment.

The above is not a value judgment. It's a plain, straightforward observation.

That observation aside, it was a very good show.

thatbags, depends on BBC rules.

I used to work in a job, where I would have been fired and rightly so, if I disclosed what I knew from work[I knew the finances of many in the town].

So what I said in my own time in public, while not even working, was part of my contract[I cant remember if it was a written part or not].

I suspect Jenni Murray, even by being freelance, has rules outside of work which she has to abide to, to be able to keep working for them.

That's not a valid comparison Ankers.
Jenni Murray wasn't disclosing confidential information, she was expressing a personal opinion.
As I said upthread, she wasn't even working for the BBC when she said it.

But being a broadcaster, I would suspect and expect that she does have certain rules for her employment, even if outside work.

So the general principle would still apply.

Plus which people have all sorts of things in their contracts nowadays.
I suspect that she did indeed break her contract.

"Commenting on the issue, a BBC spokesman said: "Jenni Murray is a freelance journalist and these were her own views, however we have reminded her that presenters should remain impartial on controversial topics covered by their BBC programmes."
...

I THINK this means that she must remain impartial when pesenting (ie, adopting an 'in the chair' role) on BBC programmes. Not with regard to her outside journalism.

Which seems fair enough

I doubt it ankers.
I can accept that the BBC might take a dim view of its employees/contractors beating people up, though it was slow to condemn Jeremy Clarkson, and it might well be within the law to prevent its employees/contractors working for other people, if they are under contract with the BBC.
But the issue was not that she had written for the Sunday Times - the issue was what she had written, and the BBC has no right to dictate editorial policy to the Sunday Times, quite apart from have no right to curb Jenni Murray's opinions.
The other point is impartiality.
I do not see that impartiality comes into it.
Impartiality at the BBC refers to impartiality between political parties, not warring factions in the LBGT community.

I don't think I agree with Jenni Murray I think the issue is far too complex and involved to dismiss trans-gender women as not having had the "experiences of being women". Such a description would also rule out children who were brought up as members of the opposite sex (rare but it has happened). There is also a fashion for bringing children up in environments without gender, are we than to conclude that girls raised like this will not be women?
However I do think she has a perfect right to express her opinion and the BBC should stay out of things unless she has used her position there as a vehicle for promoting these.

Well Jenni has said it now. It's out there, the horse has bolted. Bit late for the BBC to gag her now and I suspect they're only doing it out of being PC.

My thoughts are that we are all human first. How we live, what we think we might or might not be, is then how we present ourselves out there in the world. I wouldn't want to hurt another person by denying or rejecting how they see themselves but unless you are born with a female reproductive system, you are not a woman. I don't mind if you want to call yourself one and I don't mind if you dress like one. I DO mind if I am told I MUST accept you as a woman because your 'rights' and ego are allowed to override my right to think as I do.
And I completely agree with Rigby46.

however we have reminded her that presenters should remain impartial on controversial topics covered by their BBC programmes."

BBC rules I presume. For freelancers or otherwise I presume.
Jenni can choose not to work for them if she is too bothered by that.

nina unless you are born with a female reproductive system, you are not a woman
So, are you including women born with congenital abnormalities in that?
Girls with Turner's Syndrome are born with non-functioning ovaries, among other things which makes like difficult for them. Does that mean in your view they will never be women?

life

But there are a number of women who are born either without a uterus or whose reproductive organs don't work properly, are you then saying they are not women? What about someone who has a hysterectomy do they cease to be a woman?

I totally agree that it is entirely wrong for the BBC to try and censor the views that their employees might express in a medium other than the BBC. I am slightly worried that they feel it is OK to censor the views they express on the BBC TBH - free speech means that some people might be offended; so be it.

I am deeply offended by much of what Donald Trump says - but he has the right to say it.

As to the transgender issue - we are what we are and we cannot choose to be other. A woman who has changed herself from a man to a woman is just that. It is a hard road for those who feel they are in the wrong body - but that is entirely their affair and should not influence how others are treated or labelled.