Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

I totally agree that it is entirely wrong for the BBC to try and censor the views that their employees might express in a medium other than the BBC.

I have been having a think about that.

I think that in her case it is because ^ presenters should remain impartial on controversial topics covered by their BBC programmes."^

As regards the likes of Jeremy Clarkson who wrote many books on his views and I dont think was censored, he does not fall into the above category? Or maybe he did?

Janeainsworth, I imagined some nitpicking might occur after I posted so I'll just reply to you rather than get into an ongoing debate. In reply to your comment, functioning or not, they are born with ovaries, which are part of the female reproductive system.

I wasn't nitpicking nina and nor I think was trisher. What a dismissive comment.
I was just trying to demonstrate that it's a very complicated issue and it doesn't help to make generalisations.

Janeainsworth. I agree with Jenni Murray. I didn't respond to Trisher because I clearly stated in my post 'born with a female reproductive system'. Trisher mentioned hysterectomy which obviously is given to women who were 'born with a female reproductive system' in which case, I don't want to end up in a circular conversation.

Neither do I think I was making a generalisation. Our biologiocal systems define us. How are you going to get sperm from a transgender man? How is a transgender woman going to give birth? What's going to happen to the human race if we now start defining woman as men and men as women? Where does that leave our children? It's complete and utter madness.

Many women cannot or will not give birth but remain women, many are born without any reproductive organs or even with sets of both . It isn't as simple as you seem to believe nina1959. I imagine 100years ago no one would have thought of in vitro fertilisation or of the measures now possible to help people have children. It isn't a far stretch of the imagination to forsee a time when trans gender women will be able to have children if they want. Presumably you would then accept them as women, but still not anyone without a complete reproductive system.

Stop clouding the issue and taking my comments out of context Janeainsworth. Those girls or young women can have a medical diagnosis and treatment to correct those problems. Plus they're not opting for a gender change. Jenni Murray was talking about a completely different matter.

I must admit I find it difficult to comprehend transgender because I have no experience of feeling I need to change to a different sex so I can't really empathise, sympathise or judge people who decide on their future.

I remember two men in my workplace many years ago who decided to become women - they were subjected to all kinds of ridicule and there was uproar (by female staff) when a loo was made especially for one of them during and after his transition.

What I saw was a man transformed from a very quiet, unassuming character into a confident happy human being. This, for me, was the crux of the matter. Even a 'coming out' party was held - it was brilliant with other transgender and transvestite people attending, and was such an experience to meet them. The best party ever!

Perhaps the emphasis needs to be about the person, not whether they are internally male or female.

There is only one aspect of this where I consider that discrimination might possibly be justified and that is competitive sport.

For a trans woman who was born and grew up with a male body, there may be an unfair advantage in strength and physique. However I believe trans people have to continue hormone treatment for life and so drugs tests may rule them out anyway.

It isn't 'clouding the issue' or 'nitpicking"to point out that the matter is far more complicated and involved than the simple definition you have given nina. If you can't accept that that is fine but perhaps some of us would prefer to try and understand these.

I've never met a man-to-woman trans. but have friends whose daughter is changing to a man. It seems to be slow gradual process.I think she has always had a male mentality (whatever that is.
I can't help still thinking of her as "she" - I've known her all her life. She/he was always lacking in confidence, and still is.

I have a friend who had surgery to change his gender. She does not look like a woman - she is 6 foot 4 for a start! - her feet are huge, her hands are huge, her facial features are masculine. TBH she looks like a man in drag. She seems happy with the result though - so that's fine. But she is not trying to impose rules on others. She has done what she wanted to do and is enjoying life.

How come Clarkson could write for years in the Sunday Times and say the most outrageous things without being warned? - he had to sock someone on the nose before they said anything!

Luckygirl, I have a similar friend. Really quite a wonderful human being. He's gone through the process but still looks like a man. He had hoped that the hormone therapy would grow his hair but he's gone bald and he has to check his breasts every week because of the high doses of hormones he's taking. He sounds like a man and he still refers to himself as 'he'. Prior to the transformation he had to have a lot of psychiatric treatment so it's not a simple process of deciding your chosen gender and then whoopee, off you go. It's a long procedure to check that you really do want to change.
The strange thing is he/she has decided he's attracted to women. So he/she has gone from being a married man with children to a woman who is now attracted to other women.
Is he happy?
No, sadly not. His contentment levels are far less than they once were. In his own words he says he's climbed the mountain, got to the top and the view isn't what he thought it would be.
We do try and support him and include him in various things. Because he is really totally inoffensive, it's hard to find anything not to like. He spends a lot of time being emotional and crying and tends to isolate himself.
But he does not call himself a woman and would not dream of trying to force the masses to accept him as such. He refers to himself as just a transgender person which seems to fit who he is. There's very much a sense of realism with him and myself too. We accept him as he is and treat him as a human being. He is actually very funny when he's not depressed. I think sometimes we just have to care about the person inside the person and just see them as this when nothing else makes sense to them or the rest of the world.

Lucky Clarkson could write what he wanted for the ST without bring warned by the BBC because he's a dick with a dick and went to public school.

nina, a lot of transwomen tell the world they are lesbians, then they bully and harass female lesbians into sleeping with them, telling them that they are bigots and transpobes for not considering them and their lady penises as sexual partners. There is even a name for it, the cotton ceiling which is a term for breaking into a lesbians underwear, grim.

This is a video where a transwoman explains that biology is a made up concept, it represents where trans theory is now, worth a watch, it explains why penises are female organs. Personally I think that's Very Silly but as we've seen Jenni has just had a warning and a huge media backlash because she has said that fact out loud.

It is up to people what they choose to believe but as laws are being changed (second reading of the Gender Recognition bill is in March) it's worth taking the time to look at how much the ground has shifted, what is happening around us.

Anker, I've been a mumsnetter for about 15 years and a gransnetter for about 4, I came over when the Mumsnet site crashed a few years ago and stuck around

Someone mentioned Danielle Muscato, this is her picture, as she is now.

nina, your friend sounds so sad, what a shame. Is she getting support? A lot of people who transition have similar struggles, it's important that they have support post transition as transition is often not the solution to their problems.

I think I'll just become an amoeba and be done with it.

I tried identifying as a billionaire but the bank wasn't having a bar of it.

amoeba sounds good, safe.

Nina says of her friend - "The strange thing is he/she has decided he's attracted to women. So he/she has gone from being a married man with children to a woman who is now attracted to other women.
Is he happy?
No, sadly not. His contentment levels are far less than they once were. In his own words he says he's climbed the mountain, got to the top and the view isn't what he thought it would be."
I think that is very sad - obviously a confused individual - and an adult. This makes me concerned for the young people - who have the usual teenage angst & confusion about themselves and their place in the world - being given transgender as an option - I think it is a very rare condition.

dbDB77, he's late 40's so not a young person. I agree with you. The potential for huge harm especially where there may be peer pressure, is unimaginable.

db, that's my worry too. There is a mum on mumsnet who has a child who wishes to transition, they have been offered puberty blockers which the mum has refused. The stats show that 80% of kids will grow out of their disphoria. After the puberty blockers were refused all support has been withdrawn. Puberty blockers and a lifetime of surgery and medication are the preferred route even though we have no idea of the consequences these have on the body.

My daughter is often questioned if she is really a girl because she wears what she likes and plays with what she likes, no room for a tomboy any more, they must really be a boy. The blatant sexism and homophobia is what worries me, too many young lesbians transitioning to boys and feminine gay men trasnitioning to girls.

Then you have your late transitioners who become "lesbians" though they rarely date other transwomen, most odd.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/3032158/woman-appears-in-court-accused-of-two-counts-of-raping-a-manThis is a crime committed by a transwoman reported as female crime, in the papers today, apologies to The Sun link.

If anyone doesn't want to click it's a rape, which according to the 2003 sexual offences act is penetration by a penis without consent.

Crimewatch are also looking for Lisa Hauxwell andother rapist.

This sort of story makes me believe trans to be a psychological not a biological problem, so maybe those with such feelings may be better off being treated psychologically rather than seen as a medical problem and dished out with hormones, surgery etc. After which they may not be any happier, after all 50 years ago this would not have been an option.

They always were suzied, surgery and hormones given when it was seen to be the right thing to do. The law, if Maria Millar has her way, will change so that you can "identify" however you like and be legally recognised. That is so scary as it opens up all female space to males and we have sex segregated space for bloody good reasons. The ground has shifted underfoot and the changes will be enshrined in law before people realise what happened.

Groups of males and females in schools are transitioning together and it's the poor old lesbians being bullied to either accept female penises or transitioning themselves.

Trans men rarely make a fuss, they don't bully gay men into sex at all, they behave like, well women, wonder why that is...

Just watch the crime stats for females go up, who knew that a female could commit rape using a penis. Watch the Mercury music prize go to a tanswoman not a female, they're in the running though not sure how that panned out.

Transwomen can compete as females in sports now, some girls won't even bother taking part, what's the point.

I bet when someone is needed to cook, clean and care it will still be a vagina owner that does that job, either a female or a transman.

For the first time I can see an advantage in being old. The future scares me.

LSP - I came on to link to that story - it encapsulates everything that is wrong with the way the whole trans issue is being allowed to develop. This trans woman was in a court a couple of years ago ( on non sex related crimes) and told magistrates she was transitioning. No doubt there wasn't a dry eye on the bench. Now she's back, still with a penis, and is charged with two counts of rape -as LSP says this is penetration without consent orally, vaginally or anally and some little charmers will do all three of course. How dare the courts collude with all this Humpty Dumpty nonsense - a violent sex crime that can only be committed by a person with a penis and it's been chalked up as a woman being charged? FFFFS. She's been allowed out on bail which is good news for vulnerable women on remand but bad news for men in South Shields. And you know what, I don't think she's a real woman.