Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

I am a female. I frequently get called all sorts. I scroll past and don't worry about it. x

Apologies nina, your language in your last post was misogynistic and very similar to the abuse which is hurled around when women upset men, mainly by having an opinion.

Really? Goodness, I shall have word with myself just so I don't utter any words that can be defined as being the kind that only men would use.

Cool, avoiding misogynistic language like "cranky old bag" would be just dandy.

Then we can all get along just swell

Before you make further comment LSP, I should point out that I am not a pussy hat wearing feminist with an ongoing issue with men. In the UK women are free and I don't feel we have to prove this unless it's to help women and girls who are still living under cultural oppression.
I've never felt unequal, threatened or oppressed as a Western female.

Isn't 'swell' an American expression? Are you from/in the US, LSP?

Good for you nina, your world sounds lovely.

Anyway, This is a link to a petition against the changes which will be brought in if the gender recognition act goes through. It outlines most of the concerns I've stated and the impact that self identification will have on women and girls.

Rose Adams fought for sex segregated facilities over 100 years ago, women have come a long way since then so lets think long and hard before take away the right to sex segregated facilities.

No Ana, my daughter keeps using it and it's slipped into my terminology. She's an edgy pre teen so it comes with a heavy dose of irony

nina what's a 'pussy hat wearing feminist with an ongoing issue with men' - someone who should stay away from Donsld Trump?

Rigby, I bet Trump wears these when he's home alone, just cos he's well jell of all the pussy hats.

LSP, you seem obsessed with the idea that once legislation is passed, all men are going to dress up as women just so they can disguise themselves in order to get closer to women.

I believe our government sees them as human beings who need to pee just like anyone else. They are also a minority in need of some protection. Having a separate transgender facility is probably not an easy option so if they can't use a men's or women's toilet, what do you think they should do?

Not at all nina, again a common argument thrown at women who raise concerns about this issue.

The facts are that 98% of sexual violence is carried out by males, 90% of the prison population are male, 2 women a week in this week are murdered by their male partners so I think it's fair to say that males are more violent than women.

If this bill passes then it will be possible for any male to access female space. Now obviously most of them will just want to pee but I think given the stats above that it's safe to assume that some men will take advantage and women and girls will be at risk.

Not all men of course, most men are lovely, my dad, my nephew, my husband, my friends, but men as a class are more violent.

Lets not forget that the reason transwomen want to wee in the ladies is because they are scared of male violence, shame that we really aren't even tackling the real issue but hey ho. Then if the loos are opened to all men then they become unsafe for transwomen anyway as a bloke could just follow them into the ladies.

I don't care who I wee next to, i really don't, but my elderly mum does and I care about her and women like her. My daughter does and her friends do, they are already being heckled by males and they deserve to pop to the loo and feel safe.

I have a friend who has experienced male violence, she won't go outside if this comes to pass and that sucks because, despite your view of the UK today, there are lots, and lots of women like her out there and I care deeply about them.

I care about Muslim ladies who wants to adjust her scarf away from males, don't you?

Sure some people would feel validated by weeing in the women's, but there are lots of women and girls who would like to keep their privacy, their dignity, their safety.

Call me obsessed if you like but I care about my rights and the rights of my daughter, don't you?

Ankers I may be the poster you referred to earlier regarding sex/gender. I believe JessM to be wrong in stating that a percentage of children are born with indeterminate gender. Children are not born ready-gendered. Gender is a social construct e.g. blue for boys, pink for girls, while the sex of a child's is determined by their chromosomes. A small percentage of those children will have indeterminate sexual features.

As to what they should do, well, that isn't my problem to solve. I am involved in lots of groups that support women and girls and I am really busy, with the rise in porn culture, safe facilities for women in countries where they are raped and murdered as they don't have a safe space. Also, trying to raise money so that girls and women have sanitary towels and pants, lack of these stop girls receiving an education. To be honest, i have my hands full, but I will happily march with transwomen to secure them their own facilities.

It's odd, feminists are never allowed to concentrate on women and girls. as I saw on an MN thread yesterday no one ever asks the RSPB to look after whales or the NSPCC to concentrate on the elderly.

Anyway, off to bed, thanks for the chat.

LSP, I thought this post was about the question of transgender human beings, I make this reference because primarily this is what they are, being regarded as 'real women'? It's now evolved into where they should pee. Fair point but now you've clouded the issues by dragging in various stats on male violence across the board as if to reinforce your argument as to why transgender people should not pee in a woman's cubicle citing that they may be men masquerading as women and therefore have the intention of committing a crime. I'm sorry but you're so random, you've lost me.

Back to the toilet issue. Clearly transgender people have to pee somewhere, they are human beings with the same needs as the rest of us. I'm not happy to share a restroom with them but having thought more about it, a solution may be to create a transgender cubicle in the same way a disabled cubicle is installed, within the same block. If laws go ahead, then the obvious answer is to install cameras for extra security. Parents already know not to allow children to go into public toilets alone so this shouldn't be an issue.

nina - self identification would allow any male to identify as female. I think mentioning that males are much more violent is highly relevant. Yesterday we saw two transwomen rapists in the press so please don't say that it's not relevant, why would you do that?

A man walked into a bathroom in Chicago the other month and strangled an 8 year old girl until she passed out, this will happen more if we can't challenge who uses female bathrooms.

I agree that other facilities are needed, I would back that to the hilt. I think that you will find that transwomen don't want that, it seems to be more about validation than safety.

SueDonim. I have had a look back. Yes, it is yourself and Anya, and possibly pennturner who I was referring to.
Who all seem to say something different to JessM. Though I am ending up more confused that I was before now!

It's pretty easy really, Ankers, if you think of a child's sex as the chromosomes they're born with (leaving out the small percentage of intersex people) which cannot be changed.

Their gender is the manner in which we treat them and regard their behaviour. For instance, pink is regarded as a girl colour but there's no reason a boy can't wear pink and wearing pink doesn't mean he becomes a girl. Likewise, playing with cars doesn't make a girl into a boy. We've just imbued certain colours with certain attributes and categorised toys the same way.

Where I lived in developing countries, pink wasn't thought of as a girls colour. One school near us had a pink school uniform for both boys and girls, the colour had no gender significance to them at all in those cultures.

* LSP* I agree that are beginning to sound obsessed.
I have lots of questions for you"

Do you spend hours trawling the internet to back your arguments?
And was the man who walked into a "bathroom" in Chicago dressed as a woman?
Which legislative body are you referring to please? Hard to keep up?
And have you ever experienced a man who is dressed as a woman in a public toilet being in any way objectionable? (You didn't answer before)
People born in male bodies, wearing female clothes, are a very rare sighting in my experience. And perhaps only a couple of times in my entire life have I spotted such a person in a public toilet.
And one of those occasions it was a couple of very glittery "drag queens" on a night out in a theatre and I don't think anyone minded

Well said Jess

Jess, I have a full time job and I am a mother to a pre teen but I am politically active, a feminist and give a damn about women and girls and a change in the law that would put them at risk. The man is Chicago was dressed as a man, keep up, transwomen can now just look like men and it is dreadfully transphobic to expect them to wear a dress.

At the moment a man can be challenged, if the laws change then he can't. This is already happening in England.

This is Danielle Muscatto, a transwoman, with a female penis and beard. Woman is a feeling, an essence inside a mans head and they can present how they like.

The canadian feminist library was recently attacked by transactivists, they want the women to get rid of lots of books because they are transphobic, most of the books that mention female biology. The footage shows a big white dude shouting at the women in the library,he is a woman, no dress, no make up, just a big shouty male with a feeling that he is a woman.

I have spent a lot of time putting links together as someone upthread, Ankers I think asked for them, jeez you can't win!

Opinion <back it up with links>

Spends time putting together links <ooooo, too linky>

Make your own mind up but please be aware that the ground has shifted towards self identification, I am what i feel and will access those facilities on the day that I feel like that.

I care about this, language is already being changed so that the word mother is replaced with people, breast with chest, women on their periods as menstruaters.

It is Orwellian to change half the populations language so that they have to tie themselves in knots to describe themselves.

Think what you like but I can look my daughter in the eye, and her daughter if she ever has one, i can say that I took it seriously, I tried.

Gneder recognition bill petition, this is our government Jess.

i have experienced lots of objectionable men in toilets, but luckily have always been able to challenge them and call the police, no longer if this goes ahead.

How very odd! Where on earth do you live?

I've never experienced any men in women's toilets, never mind any objectionable ones. Far be it from me to query the veracity of your posts, but I do think you have been exceptionally unlucky.

LSD, you say 'you've experienced lots of objectionable men in toilet'? So it's already happening. If they dress up as women it won't change it.

Here in the UK, I can see no evidence of transgender assaults on women in public toilets. There are plenty of cases or men carrying out assaults but no transgenders.

You are wrong.