What do you think now?

PECS
I admit that some people who voted leave do want the UK to be able to self control its immigration levels. Often these voters are in areas where the infrastructure is struggling with the impact of uncontrolled immigration, they have seen the demographics of their environment change in a very short time with no opportunity for concerns to be heard.
However, not every leaver based their decision on immigration or any other xenophobic reason (no one I know used this as their first reason). Just as those who voted remain, leavers comprise a broad cross section of society and probably have more diverse and relevant reasons for voting leave than many change averse Remainers.

Yes and I will still vote remain and hope 3% of leavers vote to stay. Leavers have put us in a terrible situation no5 one leaver has offered and better solution.

None of the people I know who voted Brexit have mentioned those two things, PECS

I voted Leave and would do so again - I totally blame Theresa May for the abominable deal she has brought back! She stuck to her "Chequers" plan despite being repeatedly told it was a bad idea - why on earth did she just not aim for a Canada-style trade agreement instead? This proposed agreement would tie us (and Northern Ireland even more so) into a customs union with the EU without being able to leave it unless the EU agree to it. A leaked email from an EU bureaucrat stated they would get us hooked into a customs union and never let us leave - this is the type of people we are dealing with! I cannot understand why anyone would want to remain in the EU after seeing the way we have been treated during these negotiations - and we certainly won't be the last to leave, Italy is on the brink and what about poor Greece? The European project is failing fast - we are getting out at the right time.

No second referendum (who do they think they are kidding with the "people's vote" crap?), a leadership challenge within the Conservative Party asap and then offer the EU whatever version of "Canada+" we want and say take it or leave it. We need someone who is prepared to play hardball with the EU in these negotiations. Not a popular opinion I would imagine but, for me, I'd love Jacob Rees-Mogg as our new party leader.

Well said Saetana

I am in agreement.

I feel we have handed the running of the UK to Comrade Corbyn. It's just a matter of time. It's been given to him on a plate.

I wonder if TM is in his employ? She boosted his rating by calling for a GE at the wrong time, and now she brings back a "Leave means Remain" deal.

You couldn't make it up.

She is handing the Marxists the keys to Number Ten.

Just a quick point about the lies from the Leave campaign before the referendum - yes there were some lies, however does anyone remember Project Fear from the Remain campaign? Both sides were being more than a little economical with the truth, there is no moral high ground for either side in retrospect. Its incredibly patronising to say leavers didn't know what they were voting for - or that they all were anti-immigration. Nobody I know who voted Leave did so because of immigration.

As for the projects funded by the EU - they come out of the money we pay them, and we still pay in far more than we get in return. Obviously future projects would be UK funded, using some of the money we will no longer need to pay to the EU.

There is no point arguing the rights and wrongs the deal has moved on

Both EU leaders and TM are saying the the draft agreement will stand with no further negotiation and that will be presented to respective parliaments, it will quite likely be grudgingly accepted by the EU side.
However it is highly likely to be rejected by Westminster, (quite rightly too) because any deal was always going to have strings attached.

What happenes then:-

Parliament unites and cancels Brexit - highly unlikely.
Or declares" No Deal " - possible
Or calls for second referendum - possibly.
Or calls for a vote of no confidence - probably

If a general election is called it is highly likely an even worse hung parliament would get elected. Corbyn would need a majority of 80 plus to have a working majority on Brexit. The SNP and others would oppose him tooth and nail, in addition Labour is likely to loose MPs to the SNP.

We really are in dangerous territory

Whatever happens we won't get what we voted for either leave or remain.

Another day, I guess, of Brexit backbiting - who is right and who is wrong... who knows?

Going back 2 years, I don't remember the invisible Irish Border being to the fore of contentious issues. All I seem to remember is how much the EU were prepared to "screw out of us"/accept from us financially (cash cow that we are seen to be) before they would even open proper negotiations. A big enough time delay in itself.

Says it all - without our financial contribution the whole EU "shebang" would collapse. (On another financial note, Trump recognises that certain countries do not "tip up" a big enough financial contribution to NATO.)

So Brexit is all about immigration, I don't think so.

And please don't get me started on the press hounds, who are more interested in filling their 24 breaking news coverage with whatever negative "take" suits them on the day and whatever impact that has on our country's standing.

Let's put our country's best interests first and in the words of Corporal Jones - "Don't Panic". We are not all going to hell in a handcart! whatever some people might think.

A good assessment Davidhs

I telephone canvassed for the referendum and posted on this forum that immigration was top of the reasons given for voting leave.

Oh yes, tiggers the press are having a wonderful time aren’t they, filling their rolling news with bods stood around in the damp outside Westminster all day long talking to MP’s, political pundits and other journos ( who all look as if they can’t wait to get somewhere warm and dry).

I would still remain. Feel very sorry for Mrs May think she is being treated very badly. Just shows what the Conservative party are like.

Lemon
We were wondering if there was one of those ticket machines as you get on the Deli counter.
My turn, no my turn.

The EU want a deal, but only one where they control what we do, we are going to have to accept their terms on everything and they know it. We are one member of the EU Club and they CANNOT give special terms to one member because all the others will immediately say we want a special deal too.
First priority to them is to keep the EU together regardless of our wishes, there may well be other strains and issues that other members are not happy about and may well be a problem in the future. However we are negotiating NOW and all the 27 others are united, we can leave but there will be no special deal.

It will be either Stay, EFTA, or Leave

Just been listening to TM on the LBC radio interview. Questions from the public and someone asked her about the 350 million for the NHS as was written on the bus. Her reply? It’s actually around 370 million that could be spent here instead of ‘giving’ it to the EU! Quite took my breath away to her her state it wasn’t a lie! What do you GN’s think about that then? The lady herself nailed it.

I too feel very sorry for Mrs May Sheilasue but it is not just the Conservative Party at fault. At the moment everyone is peck peck pecking at her head. She inherited "the poison chalice" and is doing her best, I believe, in incredibly difficult circumstances. Let the poor woman get on with the job in hand. Her job.

And I do wish all these "would-be, power-hungry,self-seeking, wanna-be PMs" would put their country first, accept the People's Decision and give Mrs May the support she needs and deserves.

All power to her elbow!

I heard her say that, Urmstongran. Couldn't believe my ears. She seemed to be just burbling on with the same old cliches.
But I thought she sounded very tense, ready to crack, poor woman. How much more can she take?

Joelsnan - Here is one source. www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-latest-matt-hancock-refuses-to-rule-out-deaths-from-medicine-shortages-in-uk-crashes-out-of-a3990706.html

I'm going to duck for cover immediately - but I feel that if we suffer as a result of Brexit - whether it is through any deal or through crashing out - it would be good to see people who voted leave to accept some responsibility for the mess; but I can already see the blame is going to be offloaded onto TM or elsewhere...

I don’t see why we shouldn’t have another vote. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since the last one two years ago and people are entitled to have another say now that the consequences of leaving are becoming clearer. This is the future of our UK and our future generations at stake here, not a trivial matter.

We don’t vote a government in and stick with it willy nilly for ever and ever because that’s what the people voted for do we? No, there are re elections.

I am absolutely sure that the leavers would be shouting they wanted another vote if the boot was on the other foot and they lost the first one, due to the close result. Well let’s have one and see if the majority of people really still want this. That is the sensible course of action in my view.

There seems to be a deafening silence from Remainers on here about the ‘lies on the bus’ now it’s been debunked?
Strange!

Whatever happens re Brexit, we will suffer initially.

Inevitable.

We have had the audacity to want to leave The Club and question its authority.

The lie on the bus has not been debunked at all. TM dissembled

Joelsnan First, to address the specific point you make about "invisible writing" with my extract from para 28 of the White Paper, does this help?

"28. If the political implications of joining Europe are at present clearest in the economic field, it is because the Community is primarily concerned with economic policy. But it is inevitable that the scope of the Community's external policies should broaden as member countries' interests become harmonised. That is the Community's clear intention."

It seems to me clear from that, the Heath Government in 1971 understood that further social and political harmonisation was a component.

Further on, the idea of broadening the scope from a simple economic treaty was discussed in para 36.

"·36. There is no alternative grouping of countries with similar circumstances and interests which could offer us the same opportunities to safeguard our national security and prosperity. ....... the Six have firmly· and repeatedly made clear that they reject the concept that ·European unity should be limited to the formation of a free trade area."

Most of the rest of the paper refers to how the economic, trade and political scenarios are bound up, but it does seem to me to suggest that this was never going to be a static body, just exchanging commodities with lower tariffs.

I appreciate your reference to Maastricht too, but those changes were perhaps logical, and we did have the opportunity to accept or refuse.

Whilst I appreciate that your view is different to mine, I'm afraid I remain a remainer.