The unvaccinated

Anne2108

Newatthis. You do not take a vaccine to protect other people. You have a vaccine to protect yourself against a specific disease. If you have the yellow fever vaccine to travel to a country where the disease is rife, you are not having it to protect the local population but to protect yourself. Statistics obtained from the ONS under the FOI act show that on average, flu kills as many people each year as covid did in 2020, the difference being that the daily deaths from flu were never publicised like the constant barrage of fearmongering that people all over the world have been subjected to regarding covid. As I am sure you know, everyone taking this jab is currently part of experimental phase 3 trials, which are due to end in early 2023. According to official U.K. yellow card data, there have now been over 1500 deaths and nearly a million adverse effects from the vaccines. Furthermore, no one knows what the mid to long term effects will be so surely we should be questioning the government’s enthusiasm for the mass vaccination of our children and young people when their risk of catching or dying from covid is virtually non existent.

False information here. The number given of 1550 is the number of people who died soon after their vaccine jab. Not the same as having died because they had the jab. I could well have died within 24 hours of having the jab because I am living on bonus time already.

There is of course also a degree of uncertainty about the numbers killed by Covid but I know which chance I would take and it isn’t to risk contracting Covid/Long Covid.

It makes me laugh that the vaccine is described as a ‘trial’ and ‘experimental’. Some trial involving billions of people!

Markoni40

I don't understand the point. Vaccinated people can get and transmit Covid, so what is the difference... also how do we explain that Israel where almost all adults were vaccinated is now in serious wave 4 which is at the level of their worst ever peak? and more people hospitalized are vaccinated (in %, not absolute numbers). I think we need to admin that vaccines do not work against Delta variant.

Vaccines do work against the Delta variant. It is wrong to say otherwise.

www.healtheuropa.eu/covid-19-vaccines-are-still-effective-against-delta-variant-study-confirms/110553/

The level of infections is high in Israel but the level of serious illness and death is about 1/4 of what it would be if there was no vaccination.

The reason that a high percentage of people in hospital have been vaccinated is that a high percentage of people have been vaccinated ; if 100% of people had been vaccinated 100% of people in hospital would have been vaccinated. But there would be far fewer people in hospital.

A vaccination certificate has been mandatory or is still so in most European countries, but will be phased out as soon as the majority of the poplulation of any country has been vaccinated.

No one is forcing vaccination on anybody else. We who believe it stupid and irresponsible to not have the vaccinations have been vaccinated. The rest must put up with restricted access to many public events and possibly to friends dropping them to.

It is to be hoped that some who are against vaccination will change their minds about it, but if they don't, they don't. It is their choice after all.

Last week, I met for lunch with a friend who’d come, on the bus, fifty miles to the city for shopping, and wanted to meet up. I knew from previous telephone conversations that she might not take the vaccine. As it turned out, she hasn’t, as she doesn’t
‘ trust ‘ it. Her partner was in two minds, but his son, who’s a doctor persuaded him to have it, so they are living side by side, one vaccinated, and the other not. Some people have told me they wouldn’t have lunched with her, but I wasn’t certain until we met whether or not she’d had it. I don’t think it would have occurred to me to refuse to see her. I probably am close to other unvaccinated people, without knowing, often enough. The restaurant certainly didn’t ask.

I have been a silent member on gransnet for a long time. Always reading the threads...never joining in. Very often... more times than not getting hot under the collar at some of the questions posed and the replies. Today, I can't stay silent after reading Newatthis and The Unvaccinated. I am so sad at what has become of the human race and our tolerance towards our fellow men and women. I do not wish to live in a police state where our every move is dictated by government or those who think they know better. What has happened to freedom of choice, if we dictate that people must be vaccinated or be refused entry or participation in life. Please don't tell me "we are in a pandemic" I know that as well as the next person. What many are suggesting will be a police state. Take a look at the credit system people are enforced to endure in China. Or the return of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Do you want that for your children and grandchildren? Don't you want them to have the freedom we had growing up? I certainly want mine too. We have spent the last 18 months fighting this pandemic and now people want to take away our choices in life. God help us. By the way I am double vaccinated but will seriously weigh up whether I wish to have a booster. I hope the people of France realise what is happening to them. Our parents and grandparents fought hard for our freedom don't let that be lost.

Anne2108

Newatthis. You do not take a vaccine to protect other people. You have a vaccine to protect yourself against a specific disease. If you have the yellow fever vaccine to travel to a country where the disease is rife, you are not having it to protect the local population but to protect yourself. Statistics obtained from the ONS under the FOI act show that on average, flu kills as many people each year as covid did in 2020, the difference being that the daily deaths from flu were never publicised like the constant barrage of fearmongering that people all over the world have been subjected to regarding covid. As I am sure you know, everyone taking this jab is currently part of experimental phase 3 trials, which are due to end in early 2023. According to official U.K. yellow card data, there have now been over 1500 deaths and nearly a million adverse effects from the vaccines. Furthermore, no one knows what the mid to long term effects will be so surely we should be questioning the government’s enthusiasm for the mass vaccination of our children and young people when their risk of catching or dying from covid is virtually non existent.

According to official U.K. yellow card data, there have now been over 1500 deaths and nearly a million adverse effects from the vaccines.

Wee bit of an exaggeration in Anne2108's post; 2 deaths and 350,000 yellow carded adverse events. (One of them was me; my INR peaked for 2 days and came down again. Could have been due to eating chick peas. No, really.)

The tragic thing in America is that some people who only watch Fox News and the like are following their newscasters' endorsements for covid cures rather than be vaccinated. These 'cures' include a product designed to rid horses of worms which has caused a rise in poisonings of gullible humans in some states.

Well said, Anne2108. I agree with your post 100% The daily news always states xxxxx number of people reported with Covid today! how many of them have the symptoms of a mild cold, a bad cold, we don't know. The same with xxx number of people dying from covid within 28 days of a positive test, how many have died of cancer, heart disease, stroke etc even got hit by a bus just because you were tested positive sometime during the previous month you get included in the figures! Lets be told the facts

fushia Just a small point ... there have always been rules that people have to follow for their own good and for the good of all - the wearing of seatbelts, driving on the correct side of the road, etc.

When I wanted to go to South Africa on holiday, I had to have a Yellow Fever Vaccination otherwise I couldn't go.

Next week, for the 2nd time since it was allowed, I will be having a pub lunch with 2 ex colleagues, one of whom is a vaccine refuser. I’m not sure sure whether it’s down to conspiracy theories - possible - but he’s the sort of person who won’t even take paracetamol for a headache, or Lemsip for a bad cold, and hasn’t for years.

He lives alone and does enjoy his local pub, so I do wonder whether he’d have the vaccine if it was made a condition of entry.

Well said, Anne2108. I agree with your post 100%

What, even the bits that two of us have already shown to be wrong?

The bus thing is getting really old now.

As my granddaughter is quite poorly with Covid at the moment and has been for the last 4 days, and as it looks as if her younger brother has now got it (test results awaited), I am obviously very pro vax.

According to official U.K. yellow card data, there have now been over 1500 deaths and nearly a million adverse effects from the vaccines.

Wee bit of an exaggeration in Anne2108's post; 2 deaths and 350,000 yellow carded adverse events. (One of them was me; my INR peaked for 2 days and came down again. Could have been due to eating chick peas. No, really )

Fair do’s Alegrias 1500 and 2 - close! (But not very)

I think Minerva explained very well where the 1,500 comes from

I remember reading or hearing several months ago that there are no health reasons not to have the vaccination as there is nothing in it to cause a bad reaction. Wish I could remember the details.

I've been double vaccinated. I'm on the ONS programme where they come monthly and you swab and take blood. They send the results through the post and use the results for their surveys.
I'm on Prednisolone for PMR since August 2020 and this affects the results for antibodies. Over the last 3 months my results have shown NO ANTIBODIES, then ANTIBODIES and finally NO ANTIBODIES!
Consequently I'm having to be more careful. I still go out some days to some places that I feel are safer.
In Septembe, I will be going to Wales for last year's holiday in a holiday cottage. We will go to places that feel safe to us. Hopefully all will be well. Fingers firmly crossed.

I'm VERY pro vaccine, wish everyone was but understand that some people have sensible reasons for not being vaccinated.
Others are rather less sensible in their reasoning but they still have the right to not have the vaccination and I feel that everyone should have the right to make their own decisions on this. However I do agree that some places require people to have had their vaccinations to be able to access the venue and this is what is needed to try to hold back the numbers infected as far as possible and to make others going to the venue feel safer.

My daughter, 44, had covid in March 2020. She was unwell at home for several weeks but wasn't hospitalised. She is suffering from long covid 18 months later. Total exhaustion most days. Her GP has investigated every other possibility but nothing else has materialised in her results so the consensus is that she had long covid. She's since had her vaccinations as it's possible to get covid more than once and ad an asthmatic she wants to help herself in every way possible.

Has long covid, not had.

AlegriasJ. Where are you getting your figures?. I have just checked again the government MHRA yellow card system. As at the 4 August, there were 342,014 reports, which included 1,135,579 adverse events and 1,559 fatalities..

Anne2108

AlegriasJ. Where are you getting your figures?. I have just checked again the government MHRA yellow card system. As at the 4 August, there were 342,014 reports, which included 1,135,579 adverse events and 1,559 fatalities..

I can't find that page Anne2108 but I have got this:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

As of 11 August 2021, for the UK, 104,446 Yellow Cards have been reported for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, 228,239 have been reported for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 13,325 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 1022 have been reported where the brand of the vaccine was not specified.

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsduetothevaccine

There are currently 2 deaths registered with the aligning ICD codes for this.

I suppose 1,557 people could have died in the last 8 weeks because of the vaccine but its quite unlikely, I think. More likely explained by the mistake in interpreting the figures that Minerva described at 12:46.

But if you post a link to your data, I'd like to see it.

Alegrias1

Markoni40

I don't understand the point. Vaccinated people can get and transmit Covid, so what is the difference... also how do we explain that Israel where almost all adults were vaccinated is now in serious wave 4 which is at the level of their worst ever peak? and more people hospitalized are vaccinated (in %, not absolute numbers). I think we need to admin that vaccines do not work against Delta variant.

Vaccines do work against the Delta variant. It is wrong to say otherwise.

www.healtheuropa.eu/covid-19-vaccines-are-still-effective-against-delta-variant-study-confirms/110553/

The level of infections is high in Israel but the level of serious illness and death is about 1/4 of what it would be if there was no vaccination.

The reason that a high percentage of people in hospital have been vaccinated is that a high percentage of people have been vaccinated ; if 100% of people had been vaccinated 100% of people in hospital would have been vaccinated. But there would be far fewer people in hospital.

Well, depends how you read the numbers.. if 60% of total population is vaccinated and 65% of hospital cases are vaccinated then there is disproportionally more people hospitalized with vaccine then without. And this is the case right now on Israel.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

*than without

Markoni40

Alegrias1

Markoni40

I don't understand the point. Vaccinated people can get and transmit Covid, so what is the difference... also how do we explain that Israel where almost all adults were vaccinated is now in serious wave 4 which is at the level of their worst ever peak? and more people hospitalized are vaccinated (in %, not absolute numbers). I think we need to admin that vaccines do not work against Delta variant.

Vaccines do work against the Delta variant. It is wrong to say otherwise.

www.healtheuropa.eu/covid-19-vaccines-are-still-effective-against-delta-variant-study-confirms/110553/

The level of infections is high in Israel but the level of serious illness and death is about 1/4 of what it would be if there was no vaccination.

The reason that a high percentage of people in hospital have been vaccinated is that a high percentage of people have been vaccinated ; if 100% of people had been vaccinated 100% of people in hospital would have been vaccinated. But there would be far fewer people in hospital.

Well, depends how you read the numbers.. if 60% of total population is vaccinated and 65% of hospital cases are vaccinated then there is disproportionally more people hospitalized with vaccine then without. And this is the case right now on Israel.

This explains it: www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated

TL;DR - it depends on the age profile of the people who have been vaccinated and the age profile of people who are ill. Its not linear with age. Older people, who are more likely than the younger ones to have severe Covid requiring hospitalisation, even after vaccination, are more likely to be vaccinated than younger ones.