M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

stating our gender on our emails/ name badges etc. is part of the ideology that someone’s gender has more significance than any other part of their identity, including their sex. It is this ideology that then leads to males being in female prisons.

Why do you need to understand?

By the same token; if we don't need to understand, then we don't need to be informed of a total stranger's gender politics either. If I don't need to know his political bias or religious beliefs, why do I need to be informed of his chosen pronoun? Why does he feel the need to have his beliefs validated by telling them to random strangers who have no input on it, no reason to know and no interest? If it's because of a weakness of self belief, is it fair to expect total strangers to provide that self validation?
You can't have it both ways. Either you choose to be true to yourself and your identity and get on with your life. Or you choose your identity but have to wear a badge that's requesting total strangers to recognise your identity, which would indicate that there's a fragility in yourself that your asking them to help you deal with. It's not their job to do that.

Chewbacca

^Why do you need to understand?^

By the same token; if we don't need to understand, then we don't need to be informed of a total stranger's gender politics either. If I don't need to know his political bias or religious beliefs, why do I need to be informed of his chosen pronoun? Why does he feel the need to have his beliefs validated by telling them to random strangers who have no input on it, no reason to know and no interest? If it's because of a weakness of self belief, is it fair to expect total strangers to provide that self validation?
You can't have it both ways. Either you choose to be true to yourself and your identity and get on with your life. Or you choose your identity but have to wear a badge that's requesting total strangers to recognise your identity, which would indicate that there's a fragility in yourself that your asking them to help you deal with. It's not their job to do that.

What weird conclusions some people draw from things.
I suppose you could say the same thing about any identity indicator worn by anyone. Like an old school tie for example or a regimental badge. Why do people choose to wear them?

Not weird at all Chewbacca. This whole business reminds me of the saying you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is what this is attempting to do and it won't work.

Chestnut

Not weird at all Chewbacca. This whole business reminds me of the saying you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is what this is attempting to do and it won't work.

How is it doing anything like that to say those who wish to have their chosen pronoun on their badge may do so? The only people who seem to object appear to be those who say they don't need to know because they will never use them (in which case don't look at the badge). I suppose really prejudiced anti-trans people might object in some way but do we want to consider the views of such narrow minded and intolerant people? Which would be necessary if we were trying to please all of the people.

Chestnut

Not weird at all Chewbacca. This whole business reminds me of the saying you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is what this is attempting to do and it won't work.

This quote facility isn't working, is it!

Chewbacca didn't say it was weird.

Chewbacca, it's not equivalent. You don't need to understand how pronoun badges help trans people feel safe you just need to listen and know that it does

Now that won't be true for everyone, which is why it is a choice.

Like I said, I don't feel safe in communal women's spaces and I've said why that probably is but I don't need people to understand, I just need them to listen and know it's the truth

Aveline very ??

What next I wonder!

trisher

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

Do you really think that pronoun badges have been introduced so that customers who have accidents which are dealt with by staff members with gender-neutral names don't have to come up with sentences that avoid gendered pronouns?

Rosie's reply seemed to me to deal with the situation perfectly well, but my guess is that nine times out of ten a distressed customer would do what the vast majority of us does - make an assumption based on what they see.

If 'Chris' is accidentally misgendered by someone who has had an accident that required assistance and the manager who took the call or read the letter reported it back in a way that made this clear, I would blame the manager, not the customer, wouldn't you? It would be easy enough to say 'Chris, well done for helping Mrs Bloggs when she fell on the escalator. She has been in touch to say thank you and HQ has asked me to pass it on.'

Irrespective of whether Chris was known to be trans, it would be a very insensitive manager who said 'Chris, Mrs Bloggs has written to HQ, and this is what she said :
'Your staff member, Chris was very helpful when I tripped on the escalator, and hurt my knee. He bandaged up my ankle very well, and called my husband to come and get me. Please pass on my thanks to him and let him know that the doctor said that my ankle is just sprained.' Or the same wording with female pronouns if Chris was a transman.

Now that I have typed out 'Chris' so often, it occurs to me that it might be a lot simpler if Chris used Christopher if he wanted to be treated as male (whatever 'treated as male' means), or Christina if she wanted to be 'treated as female' - no need for pronouns on badges.

Doodledog

trisher

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

Do you really think that pronoun badges have been introduced so that customers who have accidents which are dealt with by staff members with gender-neutral names don't have to come up with sentences that avoid gendered pronouns?

Rosie's reply seemed to me to deal with the situation perfectly well, but my guess is that nine times out of ten a distressed customer would do what the vast majority of us does - make an assumption based on what they see.

If 'Chris' is accidentally misgendered by someone who has had an accident that required assistance and the manager who took the call or read the letter reported it back in a way that made this clear, I would blame the manager, not the customer, wouldn't you? It would be easy enough to say 'Chris, well done for helping Mrs Bloggs when she fell on the escalator. She has been in touch to say thank you and HQ has asked me to pass it on.'

Irrespective of whether Chris was known to be trans, it would be a very insensitive manager who said 'Chris, Mrs Bloggs has written to HQ, and this is what she said :
'Your staff member, Chris was very helpful when I tripped on the escalator, and hurt my knee. He bandaged up my ankle very well, and called my husband to come and get me. Please pass on my thanks to him and let him know that the doctor said that my ankle is just sprained.' Or the same wording with female pronouns if Chris was a transman.

Now that I have typed out 'Chris' so often, it occurs to me that it might be a lot simpler if Chris used Christopher if he wanted to be treated as male (whatever 'treated as male' means), or Christina if she wanted to be 'treated as female' - no need for pronouns on badges.

So if someone is transgender they can't see a message of approval sent to the company about them because in that message they are misgendered. But of course the non trans person would be allowed to read any such message. But of course no one is in favour of any sort of dicrimination are they??Sometimes people just don't recognise how prejudice works do they?
Incidently if someone chooses to be called Chris that is their choice, they shouldn't have to change their name to fit someone else's perceptions.

VioletSky You don't need to understand how pronoun badges help trans people feel safe you just need to listen and know that it does

Nope, that doesn't cut it for me. I take nothing at face value, especially when told "just accept it because I've told you so". So, I'm still saying, like others on here: "How can having a pronoun on a badge make anyone "feel safer" when the evidence would suggest that, if anything, it would make them a target for bullying and possible violence?

I, and many other women, don't feel safe in a uni sex changing room. But, using your argument; you don't need to understand why that is. You just need to listen and know it's the truth.

Chewbacca

VioletSky You don't need to understand how pronoun badges help trans people feel safe you just need to listen and know that it does

Nope, that doesn't cut it for me. I take nothing at face value, especially when told "just accept it because I've told you so". So, I'm still saying, like others on here: "How can having a pronoun on a badge make anyone "feel safer" when the evidence would suggest that, if anything, it would make them a target for bullying and possible violence?

I, and many other women, don't feel safe in a uni sex changing room. But, using your argument; you don't need to understand why that is. You just need to listen and know it's the truth.

It's like you've never spoken to me before. I understand that some women prefer communal women's spaces and feel safer there. Always have.

So if someone is transgender they can't see a message of approval sent to the company about them because in that message they are misgendered. But of course the non trans person would be allowed to read any such message.
I'm not familiar with M&S's policy on reading out letters to staff members. I'm guessing that if managers have any managerial autonomy that they'd be able to exercise discretion, though.

But of course no one is in favour of any sort of dicrimination are they??Sometimes people just don't recognise how prejudice works do they?
Is that a rhetorical question? Or a passive/aggressive dig? Or just general musing? So many question marks, but I'm not sure what I'm meant to be answering.

Incidently if someone chooses to be called Chris that is their choice, they shouldn't have to change their name to fit someone else's perceptions.
Absolutely. I was just offering a simpler way of letting a gender preference be known. Entirely optional, of course.

Anyway - you missed my question, which is whether you think that the purpose of the badges is to save the blushes of customers who have accidents that are dealt with by persons of indeterminate gender, and who want to express their thanks to HQ in a way that doesn't misgender the helpful staff member?

Franbern

I do struggle at times to remember that one of my teenage grandchildren is a 'they/them' - and I must say they always put up with great good humour when I get it wrong. I am getting better as time progresses and have apologised to them for my often mistakes by crocheting them a headband in blue/pink/white which denotes non-binary.

Cannot see any problem with any of this, in fact I would rather see youngsters as non-binary rather than tiny little girls made-up and dressed as Princesses, etc.

As for M&S - think in the great scheme of things going on in the world at the moment, such badges are not something which I can really get worked up about.

I will not be around over the next thirty-fifty years, but do think that by that time, future generations will be as bewildered about thjis times attitude to bi-sexual, non-binary, etc as our generation is to how people like Alan Turing were treated back in the 50's.

So I hazard to say you don’t like to think of little girls enjoying dressing up in play, because that is mostly what it is, not beauty pageants. Although I guess you would take offence at those girls who go in for competitions, such as Irish dance. My granddaughters loved dressing up , as did my grandson. Just because your GD chooses to be non binary, you think others shouldn’t enjoy the fun of dressing up, really.

The thing is that trans people do have rights. They have a right to people's tolerance and respect.

They don't have the right to people's encouragement but it's easy to be tolerant and respectful without being encouraging.

Sadly posts like these prove they don't have any of those things in the minds of some people.

VioletSky

The thing is that trans people do have rights. They have a right to people's tolerance and respect.

They don't have the right to people's encouragement but it's easy to be tolerant and respectful without being encouraging.

Sadly posts like these prove they don't have any of those things in the minds of some people.

Which posts do you mean, VS? And who are the 'some people'?

Doodledog

*So if someone is transgender they can't see a message of approval sent to the company about them because in that message they are misgendered. But of course the non trans person would be allowed to read any such message.*
I'm not familiar with M&S's policy on reading out letters to staff members. I'm guessing that if managers have any managerial autonomy that they'd be able to exercise discretion, though.

But of course no one is in favour of any sort of dicrimination are they??Sometimes people just don't recognise how prejudice works do they?
Is that a rhetorical question? Or a passive/aggressive dig? Or just general musing? So many question marks, but I'm not sure what I'm meant to be answering.

Incidently if someone chooses to be called Chris that is their choice, they shouldn't have to change their name to fit someone else's perceptions.
Absolutely. I was just offering a simpler way of letting a gender preference be known. Entirely optional, of course.

Anyway - you missed my question, which is whether you think that the purpose of the badges is to save the blushes of customers who have accidents that are dealt with by persons of indeterminate gender, and who want to express their thanks to HQ in a way that doesn't misgender the helpful staff member?

The purpose of the badges is to ensure that the person concerned is not misgendered by anyone they have contact with (I would have thought that was obvious and isn't it the whole basis of this discussion?)

The scenario presented of an accident was to answer those who asserted that no one ever needed to know or use a preferred pronoun. As I said earlier in the thread there are other times they might be useful.

This discussion about all the intricacies of the possible reasons really is becoming almost ridiculous and resembles the "how many angels can stand on a pin head" discourses.

As for the management's discretion why not just admit it's out and out discrimination? Really all that is emerging is how ridiculous and unfounded any of the so called reasons for objecting to this voluntary policy really are.

The purpose of the badges is to ensure that the person concerned is not misgendered by anyone they have contact with (I would have thought that was obvious and isn't it the whole basis of this discussion?)
Yes, but I never suggested otherwise. You are putting words into my mouth again. I don't doubt the intention, I am simply questioning the efficacy of badges, when nine times out of ten pronouns other than 'you' are used in the absence of the person concerned. But you know that, of course.

The scenario presented of an accident was to answer those who asserted that no one ever needed to know or use a preferred pronoun. As I said earlier in the thread there are other times they might be useful.
It was a direct answer to a question of mine.

This discussion about all the intricacies of the possible reasons really is becoming almost ridiculous and resembles the "how many angels can stand on a pin head" discourses.
Well quite. I couldn't agree more, but I'm not the one bringing in accident-prone customers, M&S HQ and transgender members of staff who also have gender-neutral names.

As for the management's discretion why not just admit it's out and out discrimination?
What is out and out discrimination? And why do I need to 'admit' anything? I am in no way responsible for M&S uniform policy.

Really all that is emerging is how ridiculous and unfounded any of the so called reasons for objecting to this voluntary policy really are.
This is a non-sequitur, surely? How do your (fairly random) statements above lead to this conclusion?

Have Percy and Penny decided on their pronouns?

OH really Doodledog talk about grasping at straws.
This consistent I didn't say that. I didn't mean that is a bit silly.
You weren't the only person who alleged they never needed to use pronouns (It's a bit egotistical to imagine you were)
Using M&S uniform policy and pretending you don't know what I meant is rather pathetic but still I don't mind explaining.
If someone who is transgender has to be given a precis of an e-mail sent to the manangement about them because they are misgendered in it, but someone who is not transgender can read any messages that is discrimination.
As you seem to need things explained simply Discrimination is the practice of unfairly treating a person or group differently from other people or groups of people
The fact that I am having to go into these details just shows how
ridiculous the whole thing is. But carry on it's amusing me to see you squirm.

I can assure you that I am not squirming.

Also, there is no need to patronise. I don't need things explaining if they are clearly written, and nor, I expect do the majority of posters on Gransnet. Can you show me where I suggested that I didn't understand that the stated purpose of the badges was to stop misgendering? As I said (as opposed to the ideas you are putting into my mouth), I don't object to the badges, I just question their efficacy. I don't see how they keep anyone 'safe', and doubt they will stop misgendering as most people will trust the evidence of their eyes in the highly unlikely event that they stop to think about the gender of a staff member at all. It's unlikely to matter to anyone just doing their shopping, really.

There would be no need for you to go into details if you hadn't suggested such a convoluted and unlikely scenario to 'explain' why the badges might be needed.

How ‘precious ‘ we are becoming, as Granny would have said , You’ve got too much time on your hands….. so much happening around the world, please let’s call our selves what ever, but don’t let’s get our knickers in a twist about mis- pro-nouning .

This is one of the things that is happening in the world, and many of us find it important. Our discussing it on here is not a sign that anyone has too much time on their hands, any more than you posting to tell us what to do means that you haven't got enough to do yourself.

I have always been impressed by the Suffragettes, I guess I find this particular concern a bit ‘precious’

Who needs a pronoun?
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it will probably be referred to as a she. If it walks, talks and looks like a drake it will probably be referred to as a he.
This will apply even if the duck is big, strong and quacks in a deep voice.