M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

Rosie51

trisher

But why is it OK for you to deny them the pronoun they choose Rosie51. If someone used the wrong pronoun about you I assume you wouldn't be happy, but they are just epected to put up with it?

@trisher how dare you?!! I've been occupied all evening but this is the lowest of the low! I have NEVER denied anyone their preferred pronouns but you just can't help yourself can you? Prepared to lie and libel just about anyone. If you ever make such an accusation against me again it won't be GN censorship you'll have to worry about, so be very sure what allegations you're making. My contempt for you can barely go higher. Perhaps you'd like to quote where I've denied anyone their preferred pronouns or maybe you'd finally have the humility to sincerely apologise!!!!!

Why should I apologise Rosie51 there are people whose gender it is difficult to tell at first glance, wearing a badge which gives the pronoun they prefer makes their choice evident, denying them the right to wear such a badge is denying them the right to use the pronoun they prefer, because how would you know what it was without the badge? As for the straw man argument of I never use it why do I need to know?. It is precisely that.
I'm ignoring your outrageous threats. Perhaps you were 'occupied' with too many glasses of wine. They are though very reportable.

Who is denying anyone the right to wear such a badge? Not me. Wear one telling me your religion, marital status, age, height, or favourite music but I doubt very much any of it is something I need to know. I'm still wondering when you'd need to use someone's preferred third person pronoun while talking to them. I'd use you "can you tell me where..." or their name "hello June".

AGAA4

Franbern I agree that in time this will no longer be an issue. My grandchildren accept that people are all different. When I was young in the 50s/60s intolerance of anyone who wasn't what they called "normal" was rife and life was hell for those people.
My mum's friend's son was dragged onto wasteland and beaten to death because he was gay.
I hope that everyone will be accepted as just people whatever they identify as in times to come.

I hope so too.

I remember when Reddit banned the Gender Critical forum last year as it was just rabid and those who opposed that subreddit were huge in numbers and demanded that Reddit ban forums that were discriminatory. They listened. Young people are so accepting now compared with when I was at school. Soon no platform will allow that sort of thing

AGAA4 That is one of the saddest reminders of a time when gay people were subject to so much bad feeling.

If having a badge with the wearers preferred pro noun is what they want to do then what is the problem, it does not effect anyone else.

As long as it doesn't become obligatory.

I don't object to them so much as feel bewildered about the need for them.

How will badges make anyone safer (safer from what?). If anything, drawing attention to someone's 'difference' is likely to make them more of a target.

Nobody has explained when or how they are likely to be useful, as third-person pronouns are almost always used in the absence of the person to whom they refer.

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

I actually already explained how this makes trans people feel safe and how it protects them from being misgendered

Violet I fail to see how advertising their status to all their colleagues and the customers in shop would make most trans people feel comfortable. I suspect they would suffer a fair bit of hostility, maybe even violence, and I can’t believe anyone would want to put themselves up for that.
trisher what’s wrong with using their name and ‘they’?

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

Is that based on a real life experience?

I'm guessing not.

No more likely than an assistant, who looks male and is wearing a badge with "Bill - female" on it. But poor old Bill, far from feeling/being safer has actually made himself a more obvious target by some customers who have an issue with it. Why make yourself more vulnerable?

nanna8, I do so agree.

Though having said that, I do still find the odd thing. Bought a brilliant padded coat last year - saw me through daily walks in every sort of winter weather - and I have to say that their ‘cosy high waisted jeggings’ - I bought some recently - are brilliant.

Properly high waisted, no need to keep hitching them up, which is more than I can say for most supposedly HW things.

I was v irritated when I wanted a 2nd pair, only to find them out of stock, but they’re back in again - at least in my size, hooray.

trisher

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

Dear M&S, I had an accident in your xx store on Wednesday and your staff member Chris cared for me, for which I'm very grateful. Chris did an excellent job and deserves the highest praise. Please pass on my thanks once again. Best wishes Rosie.

which would work very well if Chris wasn't wearing a pronoun badge or if in my distress at my accident I'd missed registering the pronouns on Chris's badge.

Of course this still isn't using third person pronouns in conversation with Chris.

Isn't it interesting how when you present a scenario that is perfectly possible the argument is then shifted to something else. Actually "Chris" is non-binary and prefers the pronoun "they" which you would know if they were wearing their badge with their preferred pronoun on it.
But actually the same use of pronouns applies whatever the reason you might need to communicate with the store about a member of staff.
As for the poor old Bill, far from feeling/being safer has actually made himself a more obvious target by some customers who have an issue with it. Why make yourself more vulnerable?
Really!! I seem to remember much the same being said about gay people. They shouldn't hold hands or express emotions in public because they just draw attention to themselves and attract condemnation.

Germanshepherdsmum

Violet I fail to see how advertising their status to all their colleagues and the customers in shop would make most trans people feel comfortable. I suspect they would suffer a fair bit of hostility, maybe even violence, and I can’t believe anyone would want to put themselves up for that.
trisher what’s wrong with using their name and ‘they’?

Why do you need to understand?

It's like the assumption that all women feel safe in communal women's spaces and that is what we all want.

We don't all want that.

trisher

Isn't it interesting how when you present a scenario that is perfectly possible the argument is then shifted to something else. Actually "Chris" is non-binary and prefers the pronoun "they" which you would know if they were wearing their badge with their preferred pronoun on it.
But actually the same use of pronouns applies whatever the reason you might need to communicate with the store about a member of staff.
As for the poor old Bill, far from feeling/being safer has actually made himself a more obvious target by some customers who have an issue with it. Why make yourself more vulnerable?
Really!! I seem to remember much the same being said about gay people. They shouldn't hold hands or express emotions in public because they just draw attention to themselves and attract condemnation.

Yes

It's victim blaming

The staff should be told that those who wish to make it clear that their chosen gender is not what it seems from their appearance/voice/clothes/habits may wear badges with chosen pronouns, as may those who wish to display that their pronouns matching their natal sex and gender. (with the various standard badges for all, in tasteful M&S colours, available from supervisors or HR. No freelance slogans on the shop floor.)

However, those who have no mismatch and feel that "what you see is what you get, I don't need a luggage label" should not be penalised for choosing not to wear any badge at all, any more than anyone who does wear a badge publicising their trans gender should be penalised either, officially or privately.

How long have women fought the battle that what we wear has nothing to do with rape.

It's the same issue really

Elegran

The staff should be told that those who wish to make it clear that their chosen gender is not what it seems from their appearance/voice/clothes/habits may wear badges with chosen pronouns, as may those who wish to display that their pronouns matching their natal sex and gender. (with the various standard badges for all, in tasteful M&S colours, available from supervisors or HR. No freelance slogans on the shop floor.)

However, those who have no mismatch and feel that "what you see is what you get, I don't need a luggage label" should not be penalised for choosing not to wear any badge at all, any more than anyone who does wear a badge publicising their trans gender should be penalised either, officially or privately.

That's not happening, it's a choice

Suppose your glasses broke when you had this hypothetical accident in M&S so you couldn’t then read Chris’s badge. Are you then meant to ask Chris what pronouns they use, whilst you’re stemming the blood running from your nose, nursing your broken arm and trying to ignore the headache you’ve got from concussion?

SueDonim

Suppose your glasses broke when you had this hypothetical accident in M&S so you couldn’t then read Chris’s badge. Are you then meant to ask Chris what pronouns they use, whilst you’re stemming the blood running from your nose, nursing your broken arm and trying to ignore the headache you’ve got from concussion?

Why do far fetched scenarios prove anything?

I'm sure in that case no one would really worry too much. You have a concussion, you might think they have 3 heads and the prime minister is Cookie Monster

From the outcry, I thought it was obligatory.

When I buy things in a department store, I don't have any need to know what anyone's personal feelings are about their sex/gender, any more than which denomination or faith they worship in, if any, but if they wish to wear a gold cross, or a six-pointed star, or a discreet badge in the store's colours informing me that, contrary to first impressions, they regard themselves as male or female, then so be it.

I would feel I was under unnecessary pressure if they prayed with customers before letting them into the shop, insisted on all male customers wearing a yarmulka, or harangued me for abusively discriminating against them if without my reading glasses I hadn't registered that they wanted to be known by their chosen pronoun rather than by the one that matched their muscular build, facial hair and bass voice.

The Bearded Lady with untreated hormonal imbalance is just as farfetched, but some trans defenders use her as an example of why we mustn't assume that anyone is the gender that first springs to mind at first sight.

And the Prime Minister is Cookie Monster, isn't he? Perfectly natural mistake to make, not farfetched at all.

It's all a choice and doesn't really effect us too much. It's more for the individual proud of who they are and sharing it with us.

No! I love Cookie Monster!

Violet you said wearing these badges makes trans people feel safe. A statement of fact. I said I failed to see how that would make most of them feel comfortable. What do you mean by saying I don’t need to understand? How very rude and patronising. I am not a child asking questions about things I don’t need to understand so kindly don’t address me as such. I presume you are the authority on such issues. Perhaps you would enlighten me as to your qualifications.