M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

Rosie51 that's 1 person. Estimates are between 200,000 and 500,000 trans people in the UK and they aren't thinking they are 6, just thinking they have the wrong biological parts.

Biology is not all we have. Our minds and bodies do not always match. Or we wouldn't spend so much time and money trying to match our outsides to our insides.

Because these same assertions that there are only 2 sexes and that cannot change are all accross the Internet and it is sending a painful and untrue message to real genuine people who are living as their authentic selves.

VioletSky the science you're relying on to tell you the earth isn't flat is the same science you now try to deny about there being two sexes and only two sexes. Are you really so arrogant as to think you know more than the acclaimed Lord Robert Winston who did such pioneering work in the fields of embryonic research and in vitro fertilization?

Also, this is not a new thing, there are many adults trying to live as children. It's not a "trans" thing, it's a human thing. What they get up to at hike is none of my business as long as it causes no harm

Don't call me arrogant. That's a personal attack and against guidelines.

Science hasn't found the answers to everything yet. Fundamental truth.

VioletSky I'm not denying that some transpeople have a dysphoria between their biological bodies and internalised feelings and I can sympathise with that struggle, what I am denying with full scientific backing is that nobody can change sex. You didn't answer the question though did you, do you accept Stefonknee as who they say they are. If not why not? And there are others like Stefonknee, are the furries really the animals they say they are? All held under the trans umbrella by Stonewall.

Rosie51 if I stood 50 people who looked like women in front of Lord Robert Winston and asked him to identify those who were "real" women do you imagine he would be any better at itthan you or I? If not why is his scientific opinion meant to influence my everyday life? It might apply in laboratories but we don't live in laboratories.

I'm still waiting for my tick list on how to identify a woman and what happens to the ones who don't pass.

VS, how do you know I am not a unicorn? Or a giraffe?

Could it be because we know that unicorns don’t exist and that giraffe DNA is different from mine?

If I claimed to be a ballerina there might be an element of doubt, as there is an element of subjectivity a regarding whether a ballerina is someone who makes a living from dance, or anyone who can get her feet into first position.

It’s not really as simple as you say, is it?

I didn't call you arrogant I asked a question. Do you really think you know more that Lord Robert Winston who has stated absolutely clearly that there are two sexes and only two sexes and that you cannot change from one to the other?

VioletSky your post @ 11.20 ended with don't you think? You asked for my opinion and I gave it as no. Because my given opinion didn't chime with yours, you've stated yes it does. Is that your opinion or is it a verifiable fact? If it's just your opinion, I'll discard it. If it's a fact, you'll need to provide evidence to support your statement.

trisher

Rosie51 if I stood 50 people who looked like women in front of Lord Robert Winston and asked him to identify those who were "real" women do you imagine he would be any better at itthan you or I? If not why is his scientific opinion meant to influence my everyday life? It might apply in laboratories but we don't live in laboratories.

I'm still waiting for my tick list on how to identify a woman and what happens to the ones who don't pass.

I think most of us would get it right most of the time. I'd imagine Lord Robert Winston would probably do even better as he'd be very attuned to skeletal differences, walking gait etc but the point is that he confirms there are only two immutable sexes. Why do you have such difficulty in accepting that scientific fact? I have my definition of woman, it's adult human female. I'm waiting to find out if you have confusion over the definition of other words or is it just woman? Can you define female for example, or child, or dog?

So how do I tell an adult human female in every day life Rosie51? Do I need to carry some sort of test with me and demand a blood sample before someone passes? It's no good defining words by just using another group of words if that definition isn't any use in real life.

So actually you are saying that LRW would in everyday life use the same indicators of what is a woman as most of us. In other words his scientific knowledge is of comparitively little use. The idea that he would have greater perceptions is debatable. I could argue that someone who has studied life drawing would be more observant and have as much anatomical knowledge. It's irrelevant anyway. You simply cannot tell. You might get 99% right but the 1% you got wrong might be the person you describe as an adult human female- that's a woman !

In other words his scientific knowledge is of comparitively little use

Poor Robert Winston. All those years of research, teaching and helping people have babies when they wouldn't otherwise have been able to. And it's all been of little use because a granny in a chat room said so. The medico scientific world will be gutted.

On here you are an unknown quantity. How do you know you’re a woman?

So how do I tell an adult human female in every day life Rosie51 For lots of everyday life it really doesn't matter if somebody of the male sex wants to present as a stereotypical woman. If you're sitting next to me on the train I really don't care. However if I'm in hospital, a prison, naked in a communal shower I damn well want you to be the biological definition. And if I should have the horror of being raped I do not want to have to use female pronouns for a man because he needs validating as something he's not. Transwomen are transwomen. If they were women to start with they wouldn't need to trans.
I'm still waiting so I'll ask the question again. Is it only the definition of the word woman that causes this confusion for you or are there other words? Are you able to define female. child, dog, tree?

Chewbacca

*In other words his scientific* knowledge is of comparitively little use

Poor Robert Winston. All those years of research, teaching and helping people have babies when they wouldn't otherwise have been able to. And it's all been of little use because a granny in a chat room said so. The medico scientific world will be gutted.

LRW is entirely secure, and deserves all the praise and accolades he receives for his scientific work. However I think even he would agree that there is nothing scientific about identifying people in everyday life. In fact to equate his scientific statement with judgements we make on appearances is truly undervaluing and denigrating his scientific achievements. Only someone who is absolutely uncertain about their own perceptions would try to undermine a statement by using such an analogy.

Rosie51

^So how do I tell an adult human female in every day life Rosie51^ For lots of everyday life it really doesn't matter if somebody of the male sex wants to present as a stereotypical woman. If you're sitting next to me on the train I really don't care. However if I'm in hospital, a prison, naked in a communal shower I damn well want you to be the biological definition. And if I should have the horror of being raped I do not want to have to use female pronouns for a man because he needs validating as something he's not. Transwomen are transwomen. If they were women to start with they wouldn't need to trans.
I'm still waiting so I'll ask the question again. Is it only the definition of the word woman that causes this confusion for you or are there other words? Are you able to define female. child, dog, tree?

So you are agreeing that there is no need for a definition of woman in everyday life. That in fact you do as I do and rely on how someone presents. So why are you constantly demanding definition?
Now I am expected to define other word for you. Really?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202111/medium-223523-danielle-muscato-danielle-muscato-24-apr-at-10-07am-if-you-53257914.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202111/medium-127910-slide-1.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202111/medium-527029-bunce1a.jpg

trisher would you look at these two people in the first two images and immediately think this is a woman? This is what we're being asked to accept, say you're a woman and hey presto you are one, no debate. And then there's Pip/Philip Bunce who's a man some of the time and a woman some of the time, apparently this sex switching is easy as pie.

Rosie51 I could if I had the inclination or the time search the internet and find you photos of "real" women who have facial hair. I CBA.
Incidently it's gender not sex.

trisher

So how do I tell an adult human female in every day life Rosie51? Do I need to carry some sort of test with me and demand a blood sample before someone passes? It's no good defining words by just using another group of words if that definition isn't any use in real life.

So actually you are saying that LRW would in everyday life use the same indicators of what is a woman as most of us. In other words his scientific knowledge is of comparitively little use. The idea that he would have greater perceptions is debatable. I could argue that someone who has studied life drawing would be more observant and have as much anatomical knowledge. It's irrelevant anyway. You simply cannot tell. You might get 99% right but the 1% you got wrong might be the person you describe as an adult human female- that's a woman !

The point, as I can't believe you haven't grasped, is that it matters in law.

If anyone is a woman because they say they are, then sex-based laws along with a definition of who is allowed into sex-based spaces, are meaningless.

You persist in bringing discussions down to whether you/we/anyone would look under people's clothes, or carry out a blood test (which would, incidentally, give proof and shows that sex differences are real, and that there is such a thing as an adult human female), or other invasive and intrusive means of determining sex, which is clearly an attempt to suggest that sex or gender differences are meaningless, but which entirely misses the point.

The point is that it really doesn't matter to most people, unless or until a male-bodied person wants to impose himself onto or into female spaces or by not declaring his maleness remove a woman's right to give informed consent to intimate touching. It also matters when someone who has benefited from male socialisation and positive discrimination declares himself as female in sex-based sociological research programmes and skews the results against women.

Nobody expects you to police anything. That would be foolish, and would massively over-step the boundaries of citizens' responsibilities. The point, however, is that these things do need to be policed, and the erosion of the idea of what a woman actually is is blurring the boundaries of the law, to the detriment of adult human females.

I agree its gender. Fortunately we dont segregate spaces by gender because it would be impossible to do that.

Just admit it trisher you have no logical argument for singling out the word woman to not have a definition so you can't or rather won't answer the question. Anybody can see you bring in ridiculous situations to justify your ideology, but when asked for logical back up you deflect ignore or deny. If you cannot define something how can you know it's applicable? Why won't you define woman as adult human female even if it is allowed to be loosely used for those who do not qualify. We need to adhere to the definition in some situations, it does not negate needing the definition just because some situations really don't matter. And actually in everyday life I'd prefer my changing rooms and toilets to exclude the people in the images I shared earlier.

This whole argument of you can only be trans if you keep quiet about it just shows how much further there is to go to acheive equality. That people can't appreciate that is mind blowing.
Can you only be feminist if you keep quiet about it? Or Buddhist? Or Tory? Or gay/straight/bi? Should people wear badges declaring their beliefs or orientations about these things too, in the name of equality, or is it only important that people declare the aspects of their lives that you find so obsessively fascinating?

trisher

Rosie51 I could if I had the inclination or the time search the internet and find you photos of "real" women who have facial hair. I CBA.
Incidently it's gender not sex.

Incidently it's gender not sex. wish you'd tell that to the transpeople who insist they have changed sex, so are entitled to enter single sex spaces. So at last you agree if toilets, changing rooms etc are designated single sex then transwomen must accept that and go use the male provision or better still campaign for a third space for themselves. We are making progress.

Why do I have to answer questions don't know the answers too?

I'm not arrogant enough to try

VS I think you’ve been asked why you think/say something, is it your opinion or a fact? And I asked you upthread why you said I ‘didn’t need to understand’ something but answer was there none. Is this because you don’t know why you say things? What are these questions that you don’t know the answer to?