M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

You'd have to read back through. I've answered questions I've been asked, sometimes the answer was "I don't know".

I'm not sure what you mean by me not knowing why I say things.

I accept trans people feel how they feel and there is a reason why they exist that will be found so logically that will be the foundation of all my answers

VioletSky

Why do I have to answer questions don't know the answers too?

I'm not arrogant enough to try

VS you must have an opinion on my question whether or not you accept Stefonknee as a transgender 6 year old girl because they feel and say they are, and whether or not you think they should have access to places for children. I can understand if you are reluctant to answer these questions if your answers don't fully align with your view that transwomen are absolutely women because they feel and say they are. For what it's worth I don't accept Stefonknee for who they say they are, and I'd not allow them anywhere near my 6 year old if I had one.

And Stefonknee does come under Stonewall's transgender umbrella.

trisher

Rosie51 I could if I had the inclination or the time search the internet and find you photos of "real" women who have facial hair. I CBA.
Incidently it's gender not sex.

So now we have it. As many of us have been saying all along, gender and sex are not the same thing.

Gender roles are learnt and vary from society to society, and change over time. They are not innate things that people 'just know', or women would still be riding side-saddle and having attacks of the vapours. Sex, on the other hand, is not a role. It is a state of being.

So, people can act outside of their gender norms, but it is not possible to change sex. For this reason, many women are uncomfortable with male-bodied people who have made no attempt to dilute their maleness with female hormones being in their spaces when they feel vulnerable, or where they feel that they may be in physical danger.

When male-bodied people have been socialised in a male way, which they almost exclusively will have been by the time they start to 'identify as female', the gender roles that shaped their upbringing are likely to remain. This means that there are situations where stronger, testosterone-fuelled people who have been socialised to be dominant are able to say, in the name of equality and diversity, that they are the same as (generally) smaller, weaker people who have been socialised to 'be nice', to make allowances and to step aside to make room for others, and expect to have this believed 'just because'.

When (some of) those male-bodied people have a history of committing sexual abuse against women, it doesn't take a genius to work out why a lot of women will not want to be in close proximity to them in situations where they are vulnerable, surely?

I don't doubt that there will be photos of women with facial hair online - there's not a lot you can't find if you look hard enough - but I'm not sure what that proves. If she has female DNA she is a woman, regardless of hair. If someone has male DNA, is wearing a suit, has male-patterned baldness, a deep voice and an Adam's apple, but insists in the face of opposition that he is female and has a right to strip off next to naked women and girls, it's odds on he is displaying a disrespect for female boundaries, and that his motives for doing so are not innocent.

Rosie51 there are clear safeguarding guidelines that will not allow a grown adult to attend school as a pupil. I agree with those guidelines but as I said before, this person happens to be trans, they are not the only grown adult who wants to live as a child. This is not a trans issue. It's a human issue.

They can live as they wish as long as they are causing no harm to others (human or animal).

I've absolutely never said that trans people should be in women's safe spaces. It doesn't make any difference to whether they should be allowed to live their lives as the gender they feel though and I believe their plight to be genuine after spending time listening to them.

I accept that trans people do use those safe spaces and there is often no way to know. I also accept that they really don't always have a choice, like you and I, they need to pee and poo.

I also don't personally feel that communal spaces for women work for me or all women and would like more options.

I also don't feel that women should be up on any sort of pedestal. I don't automatically feel safe around women.

Are we caught up now on why I don't have all the answers, why I understand it's a difficult subject for others and why I realise I can't solve the issues by myself?

I accept trans people feel how they feel and there is a reason why they exist that will be found so logically that will be the foundation of all my answers

Do you think that dragons exist and that a reason why they exist will be found, too?

I'm struggling with the next bit about how that 'logically' equates to anything, though .

I have read back through VS. I think you simply have a problem when put on the spot with a question you don’t want to answer. When asked what you think about someone. When asked if something you have said is fact or your opinion. When asked why’I don’t need to understand’.

Doodledog

*I accept trans people feel how they feel and there is a reason why they exist that will be found so logically that will be the foundation of all my answers*

Do you think that dragons exist and that a reason why they exist will be found, too?

I'm struggling with the next bit about how that 'logically' equates to anything, though .

Lol that was a daft thing to say

I will let you know if I ever see a dragon

When male-bodied people have been socialised in a male way, which they almost exclusively will have been by the time they start to 'identify as female', the gender roles that shaped their upbringing are likely to remain. This means that there are situations where stronger, testosterone-fuelled people who have been socialised to be dominant are able to say, in the name of equality and diversity, that they are the same as (generally) smaller, weaker people who have been socialised to 'be nice', to make allowances and to step aside to make room for others, and expect to have this believed 'just because'.
Sorry any number of transpeople will tell you they knew they were in the wrong body from a very early age. The fact that they were denied the right to change gender until later in life really isn't their fault. As for "smaller. weaker people being socialised to be "nice". I take it you mean females. I know some pretty outspoken women who would tell you you were talking out your arse (and no doubt you would be shocked by that). Not all men are dominant, not all women are nice. You are talking in stereotypes and applying those ideas to exceptions.

I will let you know if I ever see a dragon

Do you need to see one to know they are there? I thought that just accepting that they do is 'simple'.

trisher, why would I be shocked by the word 'arse'? I am not the one making assumptions there. I knew you would come back with that - at least this time you haven't mentioned your masculine friend who is often mistaken for a man, so should be thankful for small mercies I suppose.

Yes, I was using generalisations, which is why I put 'generally' in brackets. If you read the post before deciding what you assume I've said you would have seen that.

On the whole, men are stronger than women. On the whole, men are socialised to be dominant and women are not. Of course that does not always apply - as I keep saying, gender roles are simply learnt, not innate - but it is often the case.

If you don't believe in gender socialisation, and you accept that sex and gender are different, what passes for your argument holds barely any water at all.

Is it safe to give a company your bank details for a refund

Crispin83

Is it safe to give a company your bank details for a refund

You probably posted under the wrong subject but you can give your sort code and account number for a refund

Not sure I would necessarily do that Rosie. Too much information, in fact everything a fraudster needs. How was the purchase originally paid for? If by card then the refund should be automatically made to the card.

What are you all on about??

Not really a lot you can do with a sort code and bank account number they are given out regularly for people paying bills and on a cheque if you use that method so not really secret
Now the details from your debit card are totally a different thing

But if they have your name (maybe first name not just an initial) and if it’s for a refund very likely your address…. It’s usually businesses which routinely give bank details for paying invoices.

Replying to Crispin at 15.35 Doodledog. Though a strange question on this thread. Unless it was about a refund from M&S?. Alternatively, the thread has driven us mad.

Germanshepherdsmum

But if they have your name (maybe first name not just an initial) and if it’s for a refund very likely your address…. It’s usually businesses which routinely give bank details for paying invoices.

Yes we routinely give out our sort code and account number for our business there’s nothing I can think of that anyone could do with this information other than pay money into our account

Germanshepherdsmum

Replying to Crispin at 15.35 Doodledog. Though a strange question on this thread. Unless it was about a refund from M&S?. Alternatively, the thread has driven us mad.

Ah, I see. Oh well, it makes as much sense as many of the posts on the thread?

Business yes Rosie. Unavoidable. But personal banking details - never.

This has taken an unusual turn .

Germanshepherdsmum

Business yes Rosie. Unavoidable. But personal banking details - never.

We shall agree to differ our business account has far more money in it than any personal account lol
I did just check with my husband who has been in financial services for 40 years

I’m glad to see you on this thread Doodledog. The voice of sanity IMO ?

Personally, when giving my details to anyone, I always check what it says on their badge! You can't go far wrong with what it says on a badge!

Well at least you know what pronouns they prefer when complaining that they’ve nicked all your money/stolen your identity.?