Are engagements an end in themself nowadays?

I think it's been like that for a long time. For some people the connection between engagement and marriage isn't there.

I'm not sure how 'being engaged' is any different from 'going out with each other' or whatever expression you want to use.

Someone in my extended family got engaged after living together for several years and having two children.
It was about three years before they got married.
No sense at all to me but it isn’t my life.
.

I may get flamed for this but I agree with you OP. The meaning of getting engaged seems to have changed. It is no longer engaged to be married but rather a state of uncertainty that you’re serious about each other, may live together/buy property and even have children but no marriage. The women may be misunderstanding that they have no protection of being married when they’re engaged. Sadly, all too often find that out after they sacrifice their career / earning potential / pension planning to stay home raising the children only to be shafted years down the line.

I think you're right yogamum that some women feel more secure in an engagement which actually gives them no security at all.

I have also heard young people saying "we're getting engaged at Christmas /on my birthday/next year" which again wasn't really something you'd have heard anyone say a generation ago. The agreement to get married was the engagement, with or without a ring.

One of the older doctors I worked for in the 90s said that couples claim not to want the commitment of marriage but are happy to have children together. Children are a lifelong commitment surely?

One of my cousins announced just before Christmas 1990, that she and her husband were separating and getting divorced on 21st March! They are still together now 30+ years later after 55 years of marriage. Very weird!

I agree that it often doesn’t have the same meaning today. When my son got engaged he and his girlfriend soon set a wedding date and got married several years ago. But I read so often of X and his ‘fiancée’ having several children together and there’s no indication of marriage on the horizon. I find that sad and lacking in commitment but reluctantly accept that things are different nowadays, albeit not a change for the better in my opinion. It’s easier to walk away isn’t it, and of course the ‘fiancée’ has no automatic right of inheritance. I understand that someone people don’t agree with marriage but in that case why ‘get engaged’?

Some couples want to enjoy the present.
Planning a wedding is stressful.

Getting engaged and/or married does not mean true commitment - actions of the couple do.

What's the point of cheating, for example, if a couple is married?

I understand the security that a marriage used to give a woman.
Gladly, things have changed and by women do not have to depend on a man for their survival anymore.
Also, being married was a milestone that women had to fulfill or she was a spinster.

Lastly, I think people should mind their own business more.
When a couple is going out, is repeatedly asked when:
- are they exclusive
- do you plan to live together
- when are you getting engaged
- what date have you set up to get married?
- when are you having your first child
- your child deserves a sibling, when are you having your second child

You get the idea... overwhelming pushing from society to conform to standard milestones.

I have to say I don't agree with you Hithere.

If a couple announce that they're engaged then it's only normal to wonder if they have wedding plans.

And while I don't agree with asking personal questions of couples who haven't made any such announcement it's quite normal to speculate about a couple who have been together for a while. People have been doing that since time began.

Yogamum totally agree. It also seems that many men nowadays just don't want to commit themselves to marriage. To my mind marriage is not just a commitment or declaration of love, it's also a legal contract which in itself gives protection. I know many wives work nowadays but I cannot count the women I know who are left abandoned after giving years of their lives living with a man, for him to move on to someone else. They are then left bringing up the child/ children while usually the man goes onto have another child with the next partner. This sad pattern then continues. Im old fashioned, if you don't want to marry me, then Im not living with you. Living together in my opinion suits the man very well. The woman works, has the children, usually does all the housework, not forgetting sex. Think about it, what's not to like in that scenario for men.

Sorry Hithere

I do agree that the whole thing of if you don't get married you're a spinster to be pitied was awful and probably responsible for many ill advised and unhappy marriages.

Pepper59

Yogamum totally agree. It also seems that many men nowadays just don't want to commit themselves to marriage. To my mind marriage is not just a commitment or declaration of love, it's also a legal contract which in itself gives protection. I know many wives work nowadays but I cannot count the women I know who are left abandoned after giving years of their lives living with a man, for him to move on to someone else. They are then left bringing up the child/ children while usually the man goes onto have another child with the next partner. This sad pattern then continues. Im old fashioned, if you don't want to marry me, then Im not living with you. Living together in my opinion suits the man very well. The woman works, has the children, usually does all the housework, not forgetting sex. Think about it, what's not to like in that scenario for men.

When my friend's boyfriend asked her to move in with him her reply was 'if I'm good enough to live with I'm good enough to marry'.

They were married within months and are still going strong 30 odd years and three sons later.

Sadly for many females it is all about the ring....

Beswitched, good on your friend and that is exactly the attitude I had regarding myself. Sadly, I had seen too many women and lovely women at that, ending up in real hardship after living with a man, who then decided to move onto the next one. All very sad. I'm not saying it cannot happen in a marriage, or to women only, but marriage does protect both of you legally.

Back in the day, if things went to plan;

1. You started going out with someone you fancied/liked.

2. It progressed to ‘going steady’.

3. You got engaged.

4. You got married.

5.You had a baby.

6. You had subsequent babies.

7. The End.

Of course, even many years ago, the order of events sometimes changed…..

There were some other steps in our day.

Between 2) and 3) you had to pass your exams and get a proper job. (when we got engaged just after passing our finals and both getting jobs, we were still told by a disapproving aunt that it was too soon, although we'd been "going steady" for five years.)

The between 3) and 4) you had to save up to get married. Living together was not allowed.

Between 4) and 5) you were supposed to get yourself a house, which we were actually able to do within two years although the maximum mortgage we were allowed was two and a half times my husband's salary - my earnings didn't count.

Times have certainly changed, not all for the better.

I don't think all women ('female' is an adjective, btw) necessarily see commitment in terms of financial support. My children are both engaged, but in neither case is there an expectation that the man will support the woman. My son and his partner have set a date, but my daughter and her partner see it as a commitment to stay together, in much the same way as if they were married. Al of them work, pay their own way, and expect to continue to do so, whilst recognising that at times one or other of them may have to step up and help the other out, if life works out that way.

Whatever young people do they get criticised. If they have a big wedding they are wasting money. If they wait and buy things before getting married they 'expect too much' and aren't 'making do'.

Things have changed. Housing is ruinously expensive and the sale of council houses doesn't give that option to fall back on until a deposit can be found. People no longer feel that they have to get married to have sex, or even to 'legitimise' babies.

Marriage has never been a guarantee of anything anyway. I'm sure we have all heard tales of men who disappear after divorce, or who hide their earnings to avoid paying maintenance to children. Even people who get married can't expect to automatically get half of everything on divorce, 'maintenance' is a thing of the past, and women don't necessarily get custody of the children.

I don't think it's necessarily true that engaged couples are taking their relationship less seriously than married ones. In the end, success comes down to compatibility and a willingness to work through difficulties, whether the couple wear wedding rings or not.

In my case we got engaged and finally married to shut our families up. Neither me or my husband found any value in spending a fortune for rings or a party for other folk to enjoy that we paid for.
We were (and are) happy together, committed and had our two children, but societal and family expectations were that we “should” get engaged and married.
So for me getting engaged (when I was pregnant the first time) got both sides to back off a bit with the judgement and criticism. By the time we had our second child, pressure ramped up again and we did eventually get married.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed our wedding, but our relationship stayed exactly the same. I did find that people respond differently when I said “my husband” rather than “my partner”.
So for me, I did put that first ring on with no clear intent to marry, it really wasn’t as important to me as it was to my parents/grandparents etc.

Marriage guarantees you a right to half of the marital home whether it's in your name or not. In many ways it puts you on a more secure legal footing. And in my view it does demonstrate a commitment that an engagement doesn't.
In any event why get engaged if you've no intention of getting married? That was its original meaning. It now seems to have changed and means something else, but I'm not sure what.

It used to be the case that if a man proposed he asked you to marry him. How is the question phrased now I wonder?

Getting married does not guarantee you anything- prenups, postnups, a shark lawyer, .....

Blimey, DH & I were engaged forever, in-fact by the time we got round to getting married we already had four of our five children…

I know a mother and daughter who have both been engaged fir over 10 years each. I can’t quite see the point but each to his/her own,

Hithere

Getting married does not guarantee you anything- prenups, postnups, a shark lawyer, .....

Helpful for inheritance though!