Vagina Museum

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

Your turn first trisher.
I don’t deny TW the right to be TW. I deny the TW who . . . (read previous posts for what they shouldn’t do).
I can’t grant them the right to be women adult human female. That isn’t in my grasp or yours.

Didn't expect an answer Mollygo
"Yes" woud be the same as killing them wouldn't it???

I’m still waiting for your yes/no answers, but working on what you claim,
yes I would, because of course they’d be housed in one of your safe transwomen sections wouldn’t they? Unless of course you think they shouldn’t have TW sections at male prisons. Even though TW are male.
I could confuse the issue by saying, “Well it would depend on what they were being put in prison for doing.” But I won’t.

(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring)

as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine.

More nasty and personal comments, accusing people of racism, homophobia and the lamest one of all - of having a boring life.

I would send a male rapist to a male jail, whether or not he claimed to be a woman or claimed to be suicidal. It is for the officers in that jail to make sure that he is looked after when he gets there. Many prisoners are suicidal - why should claiming to be female give someone special treatment?

Knew you couldn't manage a "yes" or "no" answer Mollygo there are things which always have to be taken into consideration

trisher

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

So as there’s only funding for one do you choose the trans inclusive Centre prevents access for some women or the Centre that would give them access.

Which do you choose?

Doodledog

*(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring)*

as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine.

More nasty and personal comments, accusing people of racism, homophobia and the lamest one of all - of having a boring life.

I would send a male rapist to a male jail, whether or not he claimed to be a woman or claimed to be suicidal. It is for the officers in that jail to make sure that he is looked after when he gets there. Many prisoners are suicidal - why should claiming to be female give someone special treatment?

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.

trisher

Knew you couldn't manage a "yes" or "no" answer Mollygo there are things which always have to be taken into consideration

Mollygo

I’m still waiting for your yes/no answers.
Did you read?
yes I would
Now your turn. I’ve said yes I would.

trisher

Doodledog

(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring)

as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine.

More nasty and personal comments, accusing people of racism, homophobia and the lamest one of all - of having a boring life.

I would send a male rapist to a male jail, whether or not he claimed to be a woman or claimed to be suicidal. It is for the officers in that jail to make sure that he is looked after when he gets there. Many prisoners are suicidal - why should claiming to be female give someone special treatment?

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.

Evidence for this claim? The only official suicide numbers I could find just says the pro-rata is highest for white people. And another one that male prisoners have higher suicide rates than men in the general public. Suicide rates for female prisoners are too small to reliably measure. I couldn't find any data on suicide rates amongst transpeople of either sex.

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/prison-and-custody-incidents/self-inflicted-deaths-in-prison-custody/latest#main-facts-and-figures

www.ons.gov.uk/news/news/maleprisonersare37timesmorelikelytodiefromsuicidethanthepublic

trisher

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

Why are you afraid to say where you stand? Who you choose to support?

Oh come on Doodledog you can't be claimng there are significant numbers of transwomen in prisons that would match the numbers of men and make any suicides statistically less.
Here's the info for deaths in women's prisons
www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-womens-prisons

Oh come on trisher, where are your yes or no answers?
What’s a significant number? If they are in the secure units you mention, then a significant number can be anything. If they are in womens’ (adult human females) prisons, especially but not exclusively if they are there for assault, intimidation, abuse of AHF, one is too many.

trisher

Oh come on Doodledog you can't be claimng there are significant numbers of transwomen in prisons that would match the numbers of men and make any suicides statistically less.
Here's the info for deaths in women's prisons
www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-womens-prisons

Two of the self-inflicted deaths listed above (in 2006 and 2016) were of transgender women held in women's prisons.

From your link trisher, so it would seem being housed with women didn't prevent those two suicides. Every suicide is a tragedy for that person and their family, no matter their sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity if they have one.

Was your answer intended to refer to Doodledog or have you, yet again, confused us with each other, since it was me that searched for statistics?

Are you admitting you made your statement up, plucked that gem from the air, just like when you arbitrarily decided on the allocation of mastectomy figures?

The only thing that would prevent suicides in prison is a system which didn't put vullnerable people in there. But if we are looking at statistics then we should add those two deaths to the transwomen suicides in male prisons and how ever you look at it the chances of a transwomen committing suicide are higher than male or female prisoners. And as in spite of that two of you would put a transwoman who threatened suicide in a male prison I think yur level of caring for them is clear

what if people who don't have gender dysmorphia access vulnerable people via changes to law via self ID etc?

Is that not a problem in cuckoo land

Lathyrus

trisher

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

So as there’s only funding for one do you choose the trans inclusive Centre prevents access for some women or the Centre that would give them access.

Which do you choose?

If there is only one centre perhaps there could be arranged days when the centre would not be open to transwomen, then those women who feel they didn't want to encounter transwomen could use it on those days. I think the assumption that all women who have been raped would not wish transwomen to be present in the same centre is wrong. I'm sure there will be some women who will recognise that transwomen are often fellow victims
I fully expect you now to tell me I am hedging.
But I can't in all honesty deny transwomen who have been raped the access to services. In fact thinking about it I'd have a day for men who have been raped as well perhaps then we would be able to move towards some prosecutions for this crime and wipe out the taboos still attached to it.

Yes trisher, you’re hedging.

How is it any worse to put transwomen who are suicidal into a TW unit in a male prison than to put a TW into a female prison where their presence is distressing and in some cases actually dangerous to women especially vulnerable women? And you talk about being caring. ??

That would seem a reasonable if not ideal compromise.

Of course it would have to apply to all staff including counsellors and Head of Centre.

Personally I don’t think they would agree based on Wadhwa’s rhetoric so far.

Thanks Lathyrus I do think that MW is probably not the best at communicatingher ideas.
I posted a link to the feminist counselling theory. This is from it Feminist therapy is a person-centered, politically informed model that positions treatment within a cultural context. Its goals are to empower the person in treatment, enabling that person to potentially address aspects of social transformation, nurture the self and establish a strong self-concept, and restructure and enhance personal beliefs about identity. A therapist will generally work to prevent bias, demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of oppression, and offer a genuine, non-hierarchical relationship that emphasizes mutuality and equality. Those in treatment may share their own stories and also hear about the therapist's experiences.

Hmm, bias
Bias against the rights of women in favour of the rights of transwomen. I see where you’re coming from.

I don’t agree with this form of therapy personally, trisha. But like education people will have their own views on what is effective, so I wouldn’t debate it here.

I do think that a Rape Crisis Centre should offer different forms of therapy not just its preferred model, to cater for the diverse needs of its clients.

I believe that a Centre offering this therapy only is more concerned with serving its own ends. I couldn’t support it and I have to be honest and say that I would hope its public funding would be withdrawn, so that a more inclusive service could be provided.

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.
You really don't do logic, do you? What is the link between not caring about rapists and not caring about transwomen?

I care about decent people, and care less about rapists, although as I said, I still believe that they should be protected (from themselves and others) when in jail. The difference is that I wouldn't out the wishes of rapists over the safety of women.

'put the wishes', not 'out the wishes'.