Vagina Museum

JaneJudge

what if people who don't have gender dysmorphia access vulnerable people via changes to law via self ID etc?

Is that not a problem in cuckoo land

There's no need for a change in law. Self-id of trans prisoners is already accepted.

That we are aware of, there has been one death of a transgender woman in a men's prison each year in 2018, 2017 and 2016, two in 2015, and one in 2013.

What were the causes of those deaths, trisher?
We can't assume that they were solely a result of being in a prison for males. We also can't assume that they were all ''genuine transwomen", whatever those are.
They may have been men who were very disturbed.

What if a transman prisoner threatened suicide if she was not put into a prison for males?
She would not be put there because of danger to herself, caused by her being female. She would, it is hoped, receive help so that she would not commit suicide.
Likewise, it can be recognised that transwomen are male and they can receive help within a non-female prison setting.

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.
You really don't do logic, do you? What is the link between not caring about rapists and not caring about transwomen?
I asked if you would put a transwomen who had threatened suicide into a male prison. You said "Yes" I think that shows you don't care about transwomen
^

This is an account of 3 of those deaths FarNorth
insidetime.org/third-transgender-prisoner-apparent-suicide-in-little-over-a-year/
Here's more about what happens www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/innovations/when-will-the-prison-service-act-upon-the-vulnerability-of-transgender-people

I cant think of a worse message to women and girls than saying because men commit suicide so your boundaries cant matter. I also am very aware that there are very serious concerns about the way suicide statistics have been used in this debate, I think a statement was issued recently with regards to this. Alternative provision should be provided for transwomen and this is beginning to happen in some countries. In addition the suicide rate appears to increase following transition, feminists have been campaigning about this for quite some time, which seems odd if we dont care abour the rate of suicide amongst transpeople.

trisher

^Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.^
You really don't do logic, do you? What is the link between not caring about rapists and not caring about transwomen?
I asked if you would put a transwomen who had threatened suicide into a male prison. You said "Yes" I think that shows you don't care about transwomen
^

I know what I said, and I stand by it. Of course it doesn’t mean that I don’t care about transwomen- even by your standards of twisting things that is a massive leap.

It means that I put the safety of women over the wishes of rapists. Please explain why you don’t? Does your stance mean that you don’t care about women? By your ‘logic’ that would follow.

Should any prisoner who threatens suicide be given special treatment in your world? Or does this only apply to transwomen? Of course (and as I said) suicidal prisoners - whatever their crime - should be looked after, and watched round the clock; but foisting male-bodied rapists onto female prisoners is not the answer. The wishes of men should not take precedence over the needs and safety of women.

I asked if you would put a transwomen who had threatened suicide into a male prison. You said "Yes" I think that shows you don't care about transwomen.
Aha! So now what you think is the arbiter of caring for tw. I wish you’d told us all before. It doesn’t make you right however much you wish it did.
But trisher dear, they wouldn’t be in a male prison, they’d be in your transwomen sections and since they are male, those could perfectly well be attached to a male prison.
I would hope that they, along with anyone else who felt suicidal would be given help and support, whichever prison they were in.
Do you think, by the same argument you use, that since you are happy to have male rapists and abusers in female prisons, whether they’re suicidal or not it shows how little you care about women (AHF)?
(It doesn’t have to be a yes/no answer. I know you don’t do those.)

Galaxy

I cant think of a worse message to women and girls than saying because men commit suicide so your boundaries cant matter. I also am very aware that there are very serious concerns about the way suicide statistics have been used in this debate, I think a statement was issued recently with regards to this. Alternative provision should be provided for transwomen and this is beginning to happen in some countries. In addition the suicide rate appears to increase following transition, feminists have been campaigning about this for quite some time, which seems odd if we dont care abour the rate of suicide amongst transpeople.

The statement made about post-transition suicide was made by a right wing Australian Christian lobbyist who campaigned against gay marriage. He misrepresented the study anyway
theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-was-lyle-shelton-right-about-transgender-people-and-a-higher-suicide-risk-after-surgery-55573
Not the sort of person whose opinion I would value.

There were about 70 transgender people in prison in about 2016 at least 6 of those people committed suicide. That's about 1 in 10. There were around 81000 male prisoners if the same proportion had committed suicide there would have been 8000 deaths. Transwomen are obviously more at risk than other prisoners.

Trisher your response to Galaxy doesn’t answer the point she made, simply reiterated yours.

Umm, you’re a bit statiscally muddled there.

First of all I’m sure you can work out that 6 out of 79 isn’t one in 10? Never mind the about. If you’re going to do the about you might just as well about it the other way to 1 in 12..

Secondly transgender people are male and female but then you compare those figures with males only and extrapolate from both a different cohort and from your first inaccurate figures.

Do you want to try again, perhaps more cogently this time?

70 not 79. Fat finger.

Lathyrus

Umm, you’re a bit statiscally muddled there.

First of all I’m sure you can work out that 6 out of 79 isn’t one in 10? Never mind the about. If you’re going to do the about you might just as well about it the other way to 1 in 12..

Secondly transgender people are male and female but then you compare those figures with males only and extrapolate from both a different cohort and from your first inaccurate figures.

Do you want to try again, perhaps more cogently this time?

Sorry should have been 70 transwomen. And I rounded down the number of projected male suicides and prisoners to account for just estimating and not doing a precise figure. 6/70 matches quite well with 8000/81000+
It is any case a huge figure and very unlikely, all it serves to show is how vulnerable transwomen prisoners are compared with other prisoners. I'm sure the judges who put them into women's prisons were worried about the suicide figures in 2015-20. It wasn't acceptable but then so much of what goes on in prisons isn't.
And before anyone jumps in I don't approve of the decisions I can however understand them.

Whilst you are showing your working out, can you explain how your thought processes work with relation to your statement that not wanting make bodied rapists in women’s jails equates to not caring about transwomen please?

Male bodied, obviously.

Doodledog

Whilst you are showing your working out, can you explain how your thought processes work with relation to your statement that not wanting make bodied rapists in women’s jails equates to not caring about transwomen please?

No it's not worth the effort.

trisher

Doodledog

Whilst you are showing your working out, can you explain how your thought processes work with relation to your statement that not wanting make bodied rapists in women’s jails equates to not caring about transwomen please?

No it's not worth the effort.

??

trisher
No it's not worth the effort. is that the same as No Debate?
or more likely,
No, she can’t explain it or justify it?

trisher can you explain why the possibility of suicide of some men who claim to be women means that those men should be in a prison where women have to be locked in with them?
(Bearing in mind that some of those men made no claim to being women before becoming imprisoned)

Perhaps those men have mental health problems contributing to their suicidal wishes and/or their chosen identity, and those should be addressed rather than have everyone play along with the pretence that they are women?

Or perhaps they are just manipulative people, as some criminals can be.

FarNorth

trisher can you explain why the possibility of suicide of some men who claim to be women means that those men should be in a prison where women have to be locked in with them?
(Bearing in mind that some of those men made no claim to being women before becoming imprisoned)

Perhaps those men have mental health problems contributing to their suicidal wishes and/or their chosen identity, and those should be addressed rather than have everyone play along with the pretence that they are women?

You see there is the lack of understanding I didn't say they should be in a female prison, I said given the suicide rate it was understandable that the decision was taken to put them into a women's prison. Of course it wasn't right or successful but it was certainly understandable.
I think the view of why they commit suicide and if they have mental health problems is important. One of the transwomen was only 21, if you read an account of her treatment. She didn't receive her drugs in prison, she was denied a razor and hated her face, she was misgendered regularly by the staff. She obviously needed help. She had murdered someone but I don't know in what circumstances. And she certainly didn't deserve to die.

So we agree trisher that transwomen may need help and should not be in females' prison?

It astonishes me that the whole of society is being changed to go along with pretence, rather than accept that people shouldn't have to fit into stereotypes.

Of course it wasn't right or successful but it was certainly understandable.

Hang on a minute! You are now saying that it was wrong and unsuccessful to put male-bodied rapists in female prisons?

When I said that, I was accused of not caring about transwomen. How does this work?

Does it matter what the circumstances of the murder were? The conviction was presumably murder not manslaughter. The individual murdered someone

And how many women take their lives after being raped?

Of course we will never know, as so many rapes go unreported, and the same problem exists as with the dubious figures about attempted suicides amongst transexuals - they are often unreported too.