Vagina Museum

Thank you Doodledog, FarNorth and Iam64 for your succinct posts.

Thank you trisher for these words . . .
I didn't say they should be in a female prison, . . . Of course it wasn't right or successful.
Re the 21 year old murderer, it appears the treatment wasn’t right or successful either, and ended in an unwarranted death and that is to be deplored. As is the unwarranted death of the murderer’s victim.

From the article linked by trisher :

TERFs refers to people who believe that transgender women should not be allowed in women's only spaces, a view that encourages a fear of transgender women and suggests that they are not, in fact, “proper” women.

www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/innovations/when-will-the-prison-service-act-upon-the-vulnerability-of-transgender-people

Of course they are not proper women, they are men who probably have mental health problems.
Just as people with anorexia are not proper fat people however much they believe that they are.

That article contains a huge amount of illogical thought, especially that someone's idea of their 'gender' should be taken as their sex.

The mental health problems of trans people seems always ‘the fault’ of the medics, the parents, teachers, prison officers and of course a society dominated by terfs, or insensitive bigots.
The research from the Tavistock pointed to concerns that the focus on the insistence the child believed s/he was born in the wrong body. There seems to have been disregard or minimal assessment of the influence of attachment needs, adolescent anxiety, family relationships, education, social needs.

That isn't logical FarNorth

Most mental health issues can be treated, even narcissism if they are willing to ask for help.

Yet conversion therapy doesn't work and the only thing found to work is transition.

Transitioning for most is healing

Of course the therapy should happen first to prevent mistakes but when it turns out transitioning is the cure, it's the cure.

Where does your current preoccupation in conversion therapy come from Violet?
Is it being imposed on trans children or adults? I remember the historical scandals about the use of conversion therapy on gay men. I know some US evangelicals are in favour but otherwise, I’ve not heard of it’s use in UK mental health favilities

Read about it recently

Doodledog

*Of course it wasn't right or successful but it was certainly understandable.*

Hang on a minute! You are now saying that it was wrong and unsuccessful to put male-bodied rapists in female prisons?

When I said that, I was accused of not caring about transwomen. How does this work?

I realise it is probably pointless to ask, but I would still like an answer to this, please?

Of course the therapy should happen first to prevent mistakes
Well it obviously isn't happening for most VS. And you support the idea of self-identification, don't you, with no therapy required?

There are increasing numbers of detransitioners, of both sexes, who are realising that transition was wrong for them. Many of them say that there was next to nothing in the way of assessment or information before they were given hormone treatment and/or surgery.

Sensitive, skilled counseling to explore a person's background to their desire to transition is not 'conversion therapy'.

Do I? FarNorth

That would seem rather at odds with what you just quoted me as saying would it not?

Hopefully I get to decide what I do or don't think in feminist circles because if not, that's quite concerning

That's why there's a question mark but I thought I remembered you saying that in previous discussions.

Any comment on the rest of that post, VS?

There is a lot of twisting and turning going on on this thread, FarNorth.

See my post above, for instance. Schrodinger's trans-identifying prisoners, who when I say should be in male prisons, is indicative of the fact that I don't care about transwomen, but when it's trisher saying it, it means something else (as yet unspecified).

Hmm not sure there is a different way to say it.

Treating gender dysphoria in such a way that a person does not need to transition to improve has failed for most.

The best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. Which means the gender dysphoria is the cause of mental illness not a symptom of mental illness.

Yet I think therapy should remain as its important to get right how far that transition needs to go for the individual. Also, for a small minority, transition has not been the right answer.

I think those minorities matter and their needs must be safeguarded.

Doodledog

There is a lot of twisting and turning going on on this thread, FarNorth.

See my post above, for instance. Schrodinger's trans-identifying prisoners, who when I say should be in male prisons, is indicative of the fact that I don't care about transwomen, but when it's trisher saying it, it means something else (as yet unspecified).

And there will continue to be as you question the validity of some posters statements. You can post facts, and they will post ‘some people I know’, or a ‘change of subject focus’ or ‘what you’re suggesting doesn’t work, I’ve looked into it and discovered this’ with nothing to back it up.

A question of my own.
What’s the basis of
* The best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. Which means the gender dysphoria is the cause of mental illness not a symptom of mental illness.*
At what age is this transition supposed to be applied?
What does this transition consist of?
What expertise have you in deciding whether GD is a symptom of mental illness or the cause of mental illness? How do the two appear differently?
In the light of the surge in detransitiones would you say that detransition is a cause of mental illness, a symptom of mental illness or a realisation by the subject that it was the wrong thing to do?

Sorry, those questions were for Violet Sky.

I think you would be better off asking the medical community those questions Mollygo or looking up that information on the Internet

Doodledog

There is a lot of twisting and turning going on on this thread, FarNorth.

See my post above, for instance. Schrodinger's trans-identifying prisoners, who when I say should be in male prisons, is indicative of the fact that I don't care about transwomen, but when it's trisher saying it, it means something else (as yet unspecified).

Doodledog I have said it before but as you either haven't read or didn't understand the difference
A)You'd put a suicidal transwoman in a male prison
B)Judges put transwomen in female prisons because they were concerned about the suicide rates.
A is wrong, B proved wrong. But there is absolutely no correlation between the two.
In fact all it proves is that judges who are notoriously reactive and out of touch have more empathy and concern than you have.

Mollygo

Doodledog

There is a lot of twisting and turning going on on this thread, FarNorth.

See my post above, for instance. Schrodinger's trans-identifying prisoners, who when I say should be in male prisons, is indicative of the fact that I don't care about transwomen, but when it's trisher saying it, it means something else (as yet unspecified).

And there will continue to be as you question the validity of some posters statements. You can post facts, and they will post ‘some people I know’, or a ‘change of subject focus’ or ‘what you’re suggesting doesn’t work, I’ve looked into it and discovered this’ with nothing to back it up.

A question of my own.
What’s the basis of
* The best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. Which means the gender dysphoria is the cause of mental illness not a symptom of mental illness.*
At what age is this transition supposed to be applied?
What does this transition consist of?
What expertise have you in deciding whether GD is a symptom of mental illness or the cause of mental illness? How do the two appear differently?
In the light of the surge in detransitiones would you say that detransition is a cause of mental illness, a symptom of mental illness or a realisation by the subject that it was the wrong thing to do?

Mollygo, thanks for setting out these questions. I was going to set out the same list, in response to VioletSky’s post stating confidently her belief that the best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition.
If we make statements like that, it helps to refer to research that confirms it.

Iam64 Well no that's not true.

You see, I have posted links in the past but they havent been acknowledged, or they have been acknowledged but not read, or they have been read but it was research from 2 years ago so irrelevant.

As a person who has formulated my opinions by doing my own research on the subject, either after reading others comments or to satisfy my own curiosity...

I don't think it is much to ask others to educate themselves before replying rather than have me do the work twice

No trusher.

I do understand. I would put male rapists in a male prison, yes. I would put them pretty much anywhere before locking them in a cell with a female prisoner. Not because I ‘don’t care about transpeople’ (which is an untrue and personal comment, incidentally - a matter which which might concern Gagajo if she is policing this thread, too) but because I don’t care much about rapists.

Sorry - trisher ?

VioletSky

Iam64 Well no that's not true.

You see, I have posted links in the past but they havent been acknowledged, or they have been acknowledged but not read, or they have been read but it was research from 2 years ago so irrelevant.

As a person who has formulated my opinions by doing my own research on the subject, either after reading others comments or to satisfy my own curiosity...

I don't think it is much to ask others to educate themselves before replying rather than have me do the work twice

When I do research, the answers I find do not support your research. So is the outcome of your research faulty, or would you claim the outcome of my research is faulty?

Mollygo you haven't added any research to back up your point either so I guess, we've just cancelled each other out

Passive aggressive mode

Passive aggressive mode

It goes hand in hand with the usual gaslighting Iam64