Another baby killed

Cats, like dogs come in various sizes, types and temperament, I've had so many over the years as my parents did before me and you can tell from a kitten who is going to be a hearth cat and who isn't, they are all individuals and the downside is their hunting methods. As a child I had many scratches due to over enthusiastic interaction and soon learnt to be careful and leave a grumpy cat alone. You're wrong, they can be (not all of course) every bit as affectionate as a dog, ours enjoys our company and often comes for a walk with us up to the end of our Paddock and back, along with our Exmoor Pony and our Cocker making us feel like Dr Doolittle. But I feel affection for all animals so I guess I'm biased.

I’ve just read a two year old boy has been seriously injured by two out of control dogs! These poor children are being let down by these people that have no control of their dogs. I’m a dog lover but something really does need to be done.

Chestnut - your links are beyond tragic - and all so unnecessary. It is just awful; unbearable.

Yes it is always the dogs fault, because it has not been properly trained, but I have yet to hear of an owner who was responsible for the actual attack at the time.

Why should every parent have to keep pets so that their children can learn how to act around dogs. Would you have a dog in every childs' home, no matter whether it is suitable or not, whether the family can afford it? That really taking it too far.

What about the adults attacked by dogs? I was attacked by two, thankfully, muzzled dogs, a sure sign that they were not safe in public. I was walking beside a stream on a narrow public footpath. When I saw these two fierce dogs, and their owner, who was clearly having difficulty controling them. I stood absolutely still and quiet. The path was too narrow to move out of reach. When the dogs reached me, both leapt up at me, the snout and muzzle of one hit my arm very hard and I had a bad bruise on my arm for weeks and weeks before it finally faded. Had the dogs not been muzzled I would, not could, but would, have been seriously mauled.

This is why I believe that all potential dog owners should have to get a licence based on an online course and no one, commercially or privately should be allowed to sell/give a dog to anyone until the house has been assessed whether it is suitable for the type of dog wanted. Rescue sites, all, assess the potential owners and the dog before allowing anyone to have one. So I cannot see any problem if that was made officisl.

Of course some people will try and subvert the rules, but doing so should be made a criminal offence. If a dog attacks someone who has subverted the rules they should receive a substantial prison sentence, as should the person who supplied the dog, if they too subverted the rules.

Very brave of you Monica to say on this thread that it's the dog's fault! Yes, why should parents have to teach their children how to treat a creature in case it attacks them?

My comment that it's the dog's fault was ironic MOnica. You obviously didn't pick up on that.

I don't know how you can say that you have yet to hear of an owner who was responsible for an attack. Not long ago a child was killed by a dog whose owner had left it alone with the child. We don't know how the child behaved but wouldn't you say the owner was culpable for having left the child alone with the dog?

It is a parent's duty to teach their children how to behave around animals, whether they have them in the home or not, and to restrain them if they try to lunge at a dog.

In the situation which you unfortunately experienced, the owner was clearly incapable of handling the dogs and it's a good example of an irresponsible owner who had not trained and socialised the dogs and was not physically strong enough to control them, not that much control should have been needed with properly trained and socialised dogs. I could easily walk two properly trained and socialised German shepherds without need for them to be muzzled. My dog is muzzled when she goes to the vets because that's a sensible precaution when someone is going to physically interfere with them, but not otherwise. If a dog has to be muzzled on a routine walk that's not a good sign.

Yes, there needs to be more legislation and more responsibility.
Not everyone is suitable to be a dog owner.
Oit all dogs are suitable as family pets; some are working dog breeds and need to be working, not confined to flats.
Nor are some cats.

However, it's rather extreme to think that no-one should have a dog as a pet because some could become dangerous.
It's like saying that men should not marry (or even exist) or have children because some are paedophiles, wife-beaters or murderers.

Oit = Not

MOnica, I understand where you are coming from but IMO On line courses - I honestly don’t see that helping. Too easy to subvert. I agree that breeders have the responsibility of assessing the suitability of people looking to buy a pup/dog from them. Responsible breeders already do this. I needed a reference and 2 hour interview, including my existing dog and mr i when I bought a 10 month old pup. She wasn’t advertised I was lucky to be recommended. The breeder my current youngster came from doesn’t advertise either. Their pups all go to previous owners, or people with a strong recommendation.
The problem isn’t responsible breeders or owners, this thread confirms that.

I wish it could be enforced that all dog owners attend Group training courses run by properly qualified, experienced trainers . The kennel club good citizen training groups work towards bronze, silver and gold obedience training certificates. Too many people believe they know it all from watching you tube. A puppy socialisation course of 6 weeks only teaches the pup to run wild with other pups. Owners should be willing to commit to months (or in my case, years) of good training to help their dog be the best it can be.

I do believe there are a small number of dogs with unsound temperament. Usually it’s poor breeding and adverse life experience. It’s also not rocket science to spot these dogs - well it isn’t for experienced trainers.

X posted there with GSM - we agree on this

Callistemon, thanks for introducing the comparison with some men, who pose significant risks to women and children. I can’t imagine better male role models than my dad, mr i and others in my family/friendship group. Back to my working life, I met scary men who chose to own scary dogs.

GSM again a misunderstanding, I was talking of not hearing of an owner who either joined the attack or encouraged it by egging the dog on.

At the point the attack is made, only the dog takes part and only the dog is responsible. If this propensity to attack is in the dog, no matter how much training and socialisation it has will remove it. Training may control it, but not remove it.

It is because of the propensity to attack animals or humans that there should be strict controls on who owns dogs and what type of dog they own.

Why when I go for a walk, do I have to stop and stand still when a dog goes by because I do not know how well the dog has been trained and how competent the owner is?

At least by insisting that all dog owners have an approved training and only own a dog breed deemed suitable for the house it will lives in and the family circumstances, only then I can and many of the population of my village risk walking out on public footpaths without having to be cautious of any dog that comes near them..

Someone said up thread something along the lines of 'dog haters on here. You know who you are'. Like we are criminals lurking in the darkness who should be ashamed. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Iam64

I’m afraid the Dangerous Dogs act isn’t fir for purpose.
The point has been well made on this thread that people are responsible when dogs attack. There are too many people who have no idea about the kind of care, time, effort and energy that goes into helping a pup grow into the best dog it can be. Children should never be left alone with any dog.
Responsible owners don’t post daft photographs or videos of their toddler lying on the dog, posing with its face next to the dog, tormenting the dog .

Absolutely! Too many people treat the dogs as a novelty, an accessory or a toy. And, I repeat again, you also need to educate children - whether you yourself have a dog or not - to respect all animals and how to behave around them.
And I hope all those flinging statistics around about dog attacks show the same levels of concern for the far greater number of children who are killed, maimed or abused on a daily basis by humans - very often the same humans who ought to be protecting them.

Germanshepherdsmum

I know, Coastpath. It's always the dog's fault and it's pts before the true facts are known. If children aren't brought up around pets and taught how to interact with them safely and respectfully it's an accident waiting to happen. However well trained a dog is, it has only one way of defending itself if attacked.

If children aren't brought up around pets and taught how to interact with them safely and respectfully it's an accident waiting to happen. - that is only necessary because dog-lovers choose to own dogs. It is not a given - like teaching a child to put a coat on when it is raining. Rain is a natural phenomenon - owning a dog is a choice.

It is entirely the other way around. Children would not need to be taught to interact with dogs if people did not choose to own them - the onus is on the dog owners to make their animals safe around people of all sizes. If you choose to own a dog, it is not the responsibility of anybody else to train their children or themselves to deal with it.

The responsibility is the dog owner's alone because they have chosen to get one. No-one else should have to alter their lives one jot to suit them.

Serious dog licensing is required, been saying that for years. Dog ownership has all been far too casual, we have 67 million people in a very small country and that means too many dogs for the amount of space we have.

This has to stop ….

Now a 2 year old boy mauled by THREE dogs in Worcestershire on the news tonight how do you educate a 17 month old, a 2 year old and we don’t even if these dogs were theirs or a strangers and he was just in the wrong place and the wrong time He is critically ill something has to be done
AND NO I m not saying ban family dogs but there has to be much stricter legislation
Perhaps all dogs should be muzzled when outside the home, but of course that wouldn’t help babies/children killed by family dogs in the home
There needs to be some strong work done on this problem and NO I m not a dog hater just perhaps more realistic than some dog (over)lovers

Now a 2 year old boy mauled by THREE dogs
Whoever owned the dogs is totally responsible.

Dogs are also pack animals, the family is their pack, and most dogs would defend the young and all their family.

A few years ago, I was walking through a small market town in the south Lakes. I had a big 10 year old labradoodle and small 4 year old cockerpoo with me. From nowhere, a girl of about 3 ran up behind us, she grabbed my cockapoo round his middle, squeezing him. I stopped and prised her off my dog. Her parents and 2 older siblings ambled past. The mother laughing ‘ oh I keep telling her not to do that’. No apology, no remonstrating with the child. I called after her that it was lucky my dogs didn’t react but another dog startled like that could well bite.
The family was far from a low socio / educational group. Stupid though.

So, Lucky, if your child suddenly lunges at my dog whilst I am sitting quietly with said dog, perhaps in a dog-friendly cafe,it’s my fault or the dog’s fault if it reacts to the assault? No onus on you to have taught the child how to behave around animals or to stop it assaulting my dog?

Do children lunge at dogs or do they lean down to pat them?

They lunge. Often with a toy.

Children should never lean down and pat a dog in the street, dog friendly cafe etc.
Well trained children keep a distance and ask. I say thank you for asking, yes you can stroke my spaniel. Thank you for asking, no don’t stroke the labrador, he may respond by jumping up, he isn’t allowed to do that, he’s so big he could accidentally knock you over. Thanks so much for helping me train him.

Dog lovers and non dig lovers will never agree. I rarely join in anything contentious on here as that's now what I joined for. However, I have had bad experiences so I won't post again.
Also GSM you have been lovely and kind to me on other threads. We must agree to differ.

Link to the very recent attacks. There seem to be so many recently, are these lockdown dogs I wonder?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-60907487

The job of a dog owner is to make absolutely sure that there is no possibility at all of anyone being harmed by their pet. It is absolutely THEIR responsibility and no-one else's. The training should take account of the fact that small humans are unpredictable.

Small children do off-the-wall things - they run up to people and grab them round the legs. Those people laugh and disentangle themselves because it is a child. The training of dogs to be safe around children must include an awareness that children are unpredictable. It is the responsibility of the dog owner to make sure that their dog does no harm to anyone at all.

Children should be free to roam and enjoy themselves without having to undergo training to take account of the needs of people who make the choice to own dogs. If you are sitting in a cafe with a dog (!?) it is your responsibility to be alert and make sure that your dog does no-one any harm.

It is no-one else's responsibility. No-one is required to fit round the choice of dog owners to own dogs.