Another baby killed

I worked in Social Services for many years and of course met many people, a lot of whom owned dogs. Only one dog in all those years managed, after several attempts, to nip my ankle as I was leaving, a Jack Russell terrier who was extremely protective of his elderly owners. They were mortified , but we resolved the issue by them promising to shut 'Fred' in the kitchen on any further visits. I wouldn't have dreamt of making a fuss and risk their much loved dog being removed or worse.

M0nica

What worries me most about this thread is how purblind and convinced dog owners are that everything is perfect in the dog owning world, all dogs are well trained, no dog owner is never careless and selfish. I also find the way they cheerfully dismiss any stories from anyone who has been attacked and injured by a dog as very unfortunate that such an event ever occurred, I mean ONLY 23 people are killed every year.

ONLY 23. It should not be any, and if 23 die, then every day hundreds of people are attacked by inadequately controlled or inadequately trained dogs and speaking as someone who sustained an injury when attacked by a dog. i do not give a toss whether dog or owner is most to blame. It doesn't change the injury I sustained.

In 2019 nearly 9,000 people needed hospital treatment after being attacked by dogs. Nearly 2,000 were children. Many will be scarred for life. Add to that those who are attacked but not badly enough to need hospital attention.

I am well aware that most dogs are owned and looked after by caring owners, but I would be much happier if the dog owners could also accept that there is a significant number of owners who aren't and their dogs frighten, intimidate and attack innocent adults and children

This is a significant problem and should not be dismissed the way it is by dog owners.

I think that’s unfair. Several of us have pointed out the problems we have with irresponsible dog owners.

I think most of us on here who consider ourselves to be responsible dog owners have been at pains to point out that it is irresponsible owners who are to blame here, and most of us would also be in favour of measures to cut down on things like puppy farming and the reintroduction of some kind of training and/or licensing scheme. We all know that not all dogs are lucky enough to have responsible owners or be well trained - but that's not their fault. It's how you go about enforcing training or licensing schemes which is an issue too.

It is a difficult one that's for sure. Should these parents be prosecuted for being totally irresponsible or do we put this dreadful tragedy down to ignorance? If the latter, how do you ever educate/persuade people to behave responsibly?

This is the point Blondiscot. if you are the victim of the attack, the last thing that interests you is who is responsible dog or owner. you are just aware that you have been attacked and have been injured or badly scared.

The only answer is some form of registration scheme for owner and dog. If there is a will to do it, it can be done.

Jaberwok I would prosecute parents who bring what are clearly dangerous dogs into houses with young children. There can be no excuse for not knowing that these dogs that teeter on the edge of being a banned breed are trained to be vicious and children are at risk.

I am not talking about cases where a previously well trained small dog attacks children. That is very rare and I can see that owners who have done all they could to train their dog properly and had no reason not to trust it, should not be held criminally responsible if the dog does attack a child and injure it.

But in almost every fatal case and very serious injury, in the home or outside to non-family members, the dog concerned has, as I have said, teetered on the edge of being a banned breed and the owners have bought them for their vicious natures.

It’s unfair and untrue to suggest the dog owners on this thread don’t care about out of control dogs or that we claim all is well, there are many posts from dog owners acknowledging the problems caused by the huge increase in dog ownership, particularly with untrained out of control dogs
Jaberwok I understand the desire some have for the parents in this latest case to be prosecuted. I feel they’ll pay in pain, grief and loss for the rest of their lives. Prosecuting them won’t stop the next foolishness person from buying a dog to overbreed or stud as an easy Money maker
Responsible breeders only breed from dogs who have been tested for health and temperament. They don’t overuse or abuse their breeding dogs. They’re increasingly in the minority.
Dog breeding needs greater regulation. I’m not a fan of increased legislation but if ban hobby breeders and puppy farms. Anyone breeding woukd have to show five generation family tree confirming necessary health/temperament checks
But this would be expensive and some would say intrude on civil liberties so it won’t happen

Jaberwok

I worked in Social Services for many years and of course met many people, a lot of whom owned dogs. Only one dog in all those years managed, after several attempts, to nip my ankle as I was leaving, a Jack Russell terrier who was extremely protective of his elderly owners. They were mortified , but we resolved the issue by them promising to shut 'Fred' in the kitchen on any further visits. I wouldn't have dreamt of making a fuss and risk their much loved dog being removed or worse.

The only dogs who have nipped either DH or me have been a Yorkshire terrier who nipped my ankle (I wasn't sure what had happened) and a Jack Russell who leapt out and nipped DH. The JR found himself airborne (very gently). He's still ok.
So is DH.

I think a few prosecutions would make those who are irresponsible in their attitude to dogs think again, but considerations like that have never stopped the authorities form prosecuting murderers, thieves or tax-dodgers.

So todays news brings us two more children injured by a dog in Staffordshire the boy has sustained severe facial injuries
It’s a family pet believed to be a terrier

Out last night with friends who had been visiting their daughter and GD. They thought it was sweet and lovely that their 14 month old GD holds the dog’s head between her hands and kisses it. I was appalled. These are generally quite sensible people, if it was my GD I would be having a go at my daughter and certainly would not be telling people how irresponsible she and we are.

Good article in the Times today from Rod Liddell. Sorry can’t do links.
When we had a dog, we gave a lot of thought before hand about it. How much exercise it would need etc. temperament came high on the list.
According to Rod, this century so far 43 people , many of them children, have been killed in the UK. 31 of those involved were pit bulls, staffies or similar breeds. You know, the sort of dog that was bred for attacking .
Why do people still think it’s a good idea to have one as a family pet?
Tragedies will always happen, Bluebelle has just given us an instance. Those children are still alive though. Perhaps their parents rescued them. A terriers jaw isn’t as strong as a pit bulls.

I think alot of posts on here are blaming the dog , do any of you know this dogs history? these people had only recently got this dog , do any of you know what had happened to it in the past,? do any of you know what if anything these people or the child who so sadly died had done to it, It really is not all explained in press reports and probably never will be, children are fine to have with dogs ,but both need watching 100 per cent of the time, especially young children, its so easy for them to fall onto a dog that may be scared/sleeping , and in this case was the dog scared of children /adult's? Please dont always blame the dogs , the human race has alot to answer for ,in the way some dogs are treated/react. and the dog can never say what has happened!!

I agree. I have sighthounds and they sleep 99% of the time. But they can react badly if woken up whilst in a deep sleep as it’s a defence mechanism. But I’ve accidentally cut into my dogs quick whilst trimming her nails and she didn’t bite me even though she would have been entitled to do so. To get a puppy from her breeder is like the Spanish Inquisition and you have to sign all sorts of things to say she will not be bred from, not sold on without her being notified. I was house checked. If I have the slightest problem, no matter how trivial she replies to me almost instantly. She asks for notification of any health concerns so that she can look into any genetic problems even though she has every puppy heart eye etc checked before rehoming. She did advise us (being elderly) to have one of the more docile puppies from the litter and tries to establish which puppy would be better suited to different people. But the puppy classes we took her to turned her into the most amazing dog. If only all dog breeders were like her there wouldn’t be a problem. Alas, this isn’t the case.

Child fatalities caused by dogs are rare in the UK en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom (yes it's Wikipaedia but the stats are from ONS). However we could perhaps expect an increase following the Covid surge of dog ownership in the last couple of years. Dog bites/attacks/hospitalisations however are common... www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/be-dog-safe/

Totally agree with you jacksmum. Dogs are not humans, do not think like humans, cannot reason like humans, but people will treat them as if they are. They cannot help the fact that a child will often be encouraged to treat a dog/puppy like a new toy, to be played with, sometimes quite roughly, dressed up, paraded around in a shopping basket or whatever, Always blaming the dog when perhaps it has just had enough or is frightened by being shouted at, dogs cannot understand what you say to them, what they understand is your tone of voice, that's why you have to be consistent with training. Crying babies can often confuse a dog causing it to snap or even attack . Why oh why can't people understand that a dog is an animal not a human and teach children and perhaps themselves how to treat and respect their new puppy, not torment the poor thing by 'playing'. It's almost always bad,stupid owners, not bad stupid vicious dogs.

PamelaJ1

Good article in the Times today from Rod Liddell. Sorry can’t do links.
When we had a dog, we gave a lot of thought before hand about it. How much exercise it would need etc. temperament came high on the list.
According to Rod, this century so far 43 people , many of them children, have been killed in the UK. 31 of those involved were pit bulls, staffies or similar breeds. You know, the sort of dog that was bred for attacking .
Why do people still think it’s a good idea to have one as a family pet?
Tragedies will always happen, Bluebelle has just given us an instance. Those children are still alive though. Perhaps their parents rescued them. A terriers jaw isn’t as strong as a pit bulls.

I also read the Rod Liddle article in the ST. I know from what he's previously written he is a dog lover. He made the point that whenever these poor children are mauled to death by a dog, it is so often the case by a very aggressive non legal breed, I think he stated something along the lines these incidents don't happen with say a Labrador, King Charles or Poodle. What kind of people want to own a breed that is bred specifically for fighting and would be a danger not only to their family but the general public I think this couple albeit very young were staggering in their ignorance and negligence.

Slightly aside from that article, I often wonder about sadists who use such banned breeds for badger baiting and the like, clearly warped individuals to want to instigate such wanton cruelty against these lovely, rarely seen creatures, utterly, utterly repugnant imo.

Even the placid Labrador has been known to snap, Poodles can be highly strung and certainly when pushed will snap. Any dog will, under duress, snap, but certainly some types of terrier and these macho dogs are more inclined than others to cause real damage. Yes Badger baiting is a huge problem as is Hare coursing, Lurchers are used for speed, usually abandoned when their speedy days are over, people who do this are in a different league and brutally wicked.

argymargy Fatalities may be few but attacks and injurys run far far higher and too many of those injured are children.

For which I blame the parents and the owners of the dogs, if not the parents, MOnica. Not the dogs. That doesn't mean that I lack empathy. Dogs have to be carefully chosen and properly trained and controlled, and children have to be supervised and taught how to behave around them. I was brought up with dogs. I have never suffered any harm. Possibly because the dogs were carefully chosen and my grandparents and parents were intelligent people. I believe it was said upthread that there is a proven connection between lower intelligence/socio economic group and ownership of macho status-type dogs, though they're certainly not the only canine culprits.

I can honestly say I’ve never lived with a dog who snapped at a person or a child. I’m 73 and only for 5 years aged 18-23 didn’t live with dogs, though I often stayed with my parents who did have a dog.
Staffies aren’t my kind of dog but my childminder had 3 and many of the foster families I visited had staffies, or other dog breeds. Staffies were known as the nanny dog because of their suitability to living with children. Sadly, many are now overbred and crossed with pit or other bull breeds so their reliable temperament can’t be relied on.

Totally agree with GSM and Iam64. And dogs also save lives - every single day of the week. Let's not forget that.

Dog lovers in your quest to prove dogs are brilliant. all good and all loving you are missing the point in your enthusiasm to protect your dogs’ image

This isn’t about responsible owners, or service dogs or sweet companions I think we all know there are lots and lots of these but this thread is about Irresponsible owners, rogue dogs and situations that not only put people, particularly young children and babies in danger, but can cause fear, dirtiness (when they cock their leg in inappropriate places, where the owners don’t pick up poo or pick it up and leave it in the trees)
where they can be allowed to jump up or kept off a lead the puppy farms, the poor breeders, the ear and tail croppers, the massive amount of money passing hands, the dressing up of dogs, the owners that leave them barking all day or night

Dog lovers instead of being so defensive you should be joining us to get rid of all these awful practices that are bad for dogs, bad for responsible owners and bad for the general public

BlueBelle, I expect I’m in your dog lover group. I think you’ll find I’ve posted in a critical way about puppy farms, untrained dogs, irresponsible owners etc. I raised ear cropping, bully breeders churning out pups, exploiting breeding bitches and studs, illegally cropping ears etc. I was highly critical of unregulated breeding. Responsible breeders do health checks, only breed from dogs with established excellent health and temperament.
I supported Uk dog shelters who won’t place where there are young children or the fences aren’t high and secure, where people work full time. I’ve asked for greater regulation of breeders.
All owners should commit to at least a year in a good training group. I’m in year 2 with my young dog. My lovely labradoodle died aged 12, 18 months ago. Up to lockdown we were still enjoying a weekly advanced class together
Get frustrated and cross by all means but the ‘dog lovers’ contributing here seem to be in the same group as me -the responsible dog group

BlueBelle I think you'll find that we have actually pretty much all backed calls for such measures. Any responsible dog owner would. It's hardly surprising that some of us get a bit defensive though when faced with some posters who are very anti-dog (not just on this thread, but previous ones too - they know who they are) and who seem to tar all dog owners with the same brush.

We know four couples who’ve bought dogs in the last year, only one dog has been appropriately trained and is a pleasure to be around. Two are treated, as observed, like replacement children, including the owners referring to themselves as ‘Mummy and Daddy’, one is too big and strong for the owners, goodness knows how that will end up.
I think it’s a real shame, we’ve never had dogs as adults, our lifestyle, working full time, holidays, doesn’t work, but I think, as noted, it’s too easy to buy, what for some, is a ‘cuddly toy’.