Another baby killed

Forgot to add labradors are not that benign.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-breed-most-likely-to-attack-bite-you-revealed-a7166296.html

I wasn't going to post on this thread again but just to say Jax, as I posted above, it was a Labrador that attacked my friend's child.

Labs are the most commonly owned breed in this country, so it stands to reason that they're going to appear more in the statistics. ANY dog can bite - the trouble with statistics is that you don't know what went on beforehand. Chances are a good number of those dogs were provoked in some way.

Labs are hugely popular, so I’m not surprised they are represented as having bitten. I can’t find any detail, other than that post delivery people have been bitten by labs, no info as to whether these are loose working labs in rural areas. Hasten to add , I’m not excusing any attacks, especially on posties or any delivery people

I was chatting with a vet on the beach a few years ago who told me that Labs were responsible for more attacks than any other breed. Can’t remember if she meant attacks on other dogs or on people. Or both.

Assistance dogs - there is no difference with these than with any others. They too are wild animals who are being trained to do our bidding. Under the right circumstances, they too are equally unpredictable. Of course I understand that they are doing good (from a human perspective) in the role that we have chosen for them.

I am not comforted by the suggestion that a dog growling and barking alongside a fence will be just fine if it has been properly trained and has responsible owners (and if the fence holds).... the problem lies in the "if" and this thread has made it very clear that responsible owners are far from being a given.

Dog ownership is too lightly regulated and the numbers are out of hand now. All too often they are blessed nuisance to people, and I do not believe that is acceptable. Under no other circumstances would this be tolerated.

I am not unaware of the suffering of dogs as they submit themselves to our will: e.g. choking on a collar when out for a walk on a lead and being prevented from what is natural to them; and this weekend I was on a (very packed) train and a poor little dog was squashed in along with the rest of us, and people were passing food around over its head - all it could do was follow it plaintively with its eyes - not allowed to be a dog and gobble it up, but being required to be a mini-human and show restraint.

Being a pet must be very tough when you are in fact a wild animal at heart.

Is it right that we do this to them? Most people seem to think it is and never question it. But I do question it. All the problems that arise with dogs are because we are forcing them to go against their natures.

Man's relationship with the animal kingdom veers between the sentimental and the downright cruel.

But they’re wild animals that chose to live with us because they realised by doing so they were on to a good thing. Unlike most animals we didn’t domesticate them; they domesticated themselves. Humans didn’t go out trapping wolves to make pets of them The wolves hung round the campsites and started to make themselves useful. Cats did the same but tended to do it more on their own terms. Dogs, being pack animals were able to key into man’s emotions, too. If you asked Winnie if she’d rather be out hunting rabbits and sleeping in a cave or sitting on the sofa with me sharing a banana (her favourite) I know what her answer would be….

Thanks MawBee70, for posting the truth. The wolves hung around, decided living with humans was a Good Thing that may lead eventually to sharing the sofa and watching tv with their chosen being.
Most dogs in this country now come from hundreds of years of domesticated life. They have breed specific characteristics, terriers kill rats given the chance. My two retrieve given any opportunity, retrieving from water is their favourite thing though the spaniel is also instinctively ace at flushing birds.

Assistance dogs work hard, especially guide dogs. Labradors and retrievers are most likely to be selected by guide dogs, hundreds of years of working alongside people, generally good temperament, clever and keen to work and please make them a good choice.
Police dogs love their work. They live with their handler and usually stay with them on retirement. My pet dogs were of great assistance during therapeutic work with children.

Yes, we need regulation of breeding, the importing of street dogs. Yes people should educate thenselves, all this is obvious and acknowledged. We live in a free society thank heavens. Dogs bring so much happiness to so many people. There’s research confirming this, people who have dogs tend to be healthier and have better mental health

All dogs, domesticated or not, have the basic instincts of wild animals. This is what causes the problems. What else causes them? Bad owners get blamed - but all these bad owners are doing is failing to curb the dog's basic instincts.

Frankly Lucky I don’t think you really know much about dogs. You make up a narrative to support your intense dislike of them despite hearing from posters on here who have owned various breeds of dog for many years and have considerable knowledge of them. My German shepherd’s instinct is to protect her family and her home. Evidence of generations of domestication, her ancestors many years ago having been wolves who attached themselves to man in order to enjoy the fringe benefits of food and shelter. She pays no attention to the wildlife coming into the garden nor to the horses grazing in full sight in the field behind us, coming right up to the chain link fence. She hasn’t been taught to ignore them. She understands that they pose no threat. If she had these basic wild instincts you talk of she would want to savage them and have to be restrained. It’s ridiculous to suggest that responsible dog owners are cruelly suppressing their dogs’ natural instincts.

I can only speak on the basis of my experience. Sadly it has all been bad.

I do think there is a problem with the proliferation of dogs in the UK, and the level of nuisance that they cause. As you say your dog's instinct is to protect you all - what happens to those who are not part of your family. The dog sees them as a threat of course. And what does a dog do when his own are threatened?

I am also very interested in the topic of humankind's relationship with the natural world, and animals in particular.

I appreciate that the idea that dog owners suppress their pets natural instincts might not feel comfortable to you, but I do not think it is arguable. Without the training of their owners, their behaviour would be very different, and would be dictated by their wild side.

Now, you can argue that it is fine to train these traits out of them - that is one way of looking at it - but only one.

My dog has never, ever attacked anyone Lucky, but I have no doubt that if someone attacked us she would respond. As would any of us if they saw a family member being attacked. We wouldn’t idly stand by and watch would we? She would not, however, instigate an attack where no threat is present. I’m sorry you have had bad experiences with dogs but you cannot ignore the knowledge of experienced dog owners who know their animals very well. I’m a very experienced German shepherd owner and know the breed well enough to assure you that their natural instinct is to protect their family, not to attack indiscriminately.

One point on which we can agree is that because of indiscriminate breeding and thoughtless lockdown cravings for puppies there are too many dogs around, and too many in the wrong hands.

I am glad that your dog has never attacked anyone. Would that this were so for all dogs; and especially the alsatian that went for me as a child.

There is no way of completely ensuring that dogs do not follow their defence/attack instincts. At least some attempt should be made to control the number of dogs, to regulate their ownership and breeding - we more or less have a free-for-all at the moment.

Luckygirl3

I can only speak on the basis of my experience. Sadly it has all been bad.

I do think there is a problem with the proliferation of dogs in the UK, and the level of nuisance that they cause. As you say your dog's instinct is to protect you all - what happens to those who are not part of your family. The dog sees them as a threat of course. And what does a dog do when his own are threatened?

I am also very interested in the topic of humankind's relationship with the natural world, and animals in particular.

Totally agree with your last paragraph in that the current viruses that we have in various parts of the world are a result of our relationship with animals and the way we abuse them. And we’re the only animal on the planet threatening the very existence of every other living creature (and I don’t just mean by nuclear war). If we don’t sort out that relationship we’ll go down with them. Look how, during the first long lockdown, Mother Nature began to heal herself.

I have already said that I agree with regulating breeding, though I doubt that would ever be completely achieved whilst you have people buying a dog from God knows where to make a quick buck from some unlicensed back street breeding out of sight.
Quite how you could regulate ownership I don’t know. Simply bringing back the old licensing system wouldn’t solve the problem of irresponsible ownership. There are enough drivers without licences on the roads to knock that one on the head.
A combination of mandatory castration of male dogs not owned by licensed breeders and a ban on the sale of dogs (and preferably all animals) on social media and through classified ads would go some way to reducing numbers of poorly controlled dogs.

The trouble is, how would you police mandatory castration (and perhaps spaying too) and backstreet breeding? I thought puppy farms were illegal these days? Certainly buying and selling of any animal should be illegal through social media, and I think you could possibly enforce that, which would be a good step forward. As for the domestication of dogs, the facts are well known as described by posters on here, and to suggest that somehow it is cruel to train and socialise a puppy is just ridiculous and tbh I can't be bothered to discuss it. untrained children can be pretty wild too!! Nobody could ever watch a sheepdog in action without realising that these dogs are doing exactly what they instictively enjoy as do many other breeds. No one is cruel to them, no one is making them behave in an unnatural way. To suggest otherwise just displays a complete ignorance of the canine world.

I agree with you Gsm. I couldn't quite believe the post from Lucky @ 21.25. I was tempted to reply but I thought it better to leave it 'til today when others will have done so in a better way that I could.
I was tempted to ask if it was a "wind up". The various comments regarding wild animals/dogs, are quite ridiculous.
What do you think about cats, Lucky, they roam in and out of gardens sit on fences etc; or even children who play games outside, ride their bicycles outside, make lots of noise when the are playing etc.
I would honestly have thought if you are so concerned about dogs where you live, that a house in the wilds away from civilisation would be a better choice for you.
Each and every one of us has said there should be more legislation regarding dog owners and dog breeders.

I imagine that castration could be carried out at the same time as vaccination. You’d never achieve 100% compliance of course but at least if a male dog was found not to be castrated (and unless they have long fur you can see at a glance) then an offence would be committed. I wouldn’t advocate extending it to spaying as that’s a much bigger operation. I thought that puppy farms had been outlawed but sadly they still exist. I completely agree with what you say about training dogs. My last vet trained sheep dogs and he certainly wouldn’t have been involved in cruel practices. It’s a joy to watch a working dog whether a sheepdog, police dog or guide dog.

But castration too early can result in behavioural problems and also interfere with bone growth etc. And many people no longer give their dogs booster vaccinations. I think all dogs in rescues are spayed or castrated but I could be wrong.

Not all rescue dogs are spayed or castrated, perhaps because the charities can’t afford it. Spaying is costly. I have only had one entire male rescue dog, who was later castrated for health reasons. All the females had already been spayed before going to the rescue kennels.
I agree that castration shouldn’t be carried out too early and unfortunately many dogs aren’t given boosters. You can however easily see if most male dogs are entire or not. Stop and search perhaps!

we had to spay our own rescue dogs, they ask now to let the female have her first season but our current dog was @ 19 months and still hadn't had a season so the vet decided to just do it

Cats are the wildest of "domesticated" animals. They are out and about killing all the time - as is only right - that is their nature. They come "home" because food and warmth are freely available. Nobody really owns a cat.

The idea of our human superiority and right to train animals to do what we want is so ingrained that any discussion on the principles seems to be impossible.

As humans we have a really strange relationship with animals. Rodents are either pests to be exterminated as quickly as possible and as cruelly as is needed; or they are pampered pets. Lambs are cute little things bouncing around the fields or they are dinner. Protected species are protected at the expense of those to whom they are predators - why do we have the right to decide which species lives and which dies?

By the way - I do live in the middle of nowhere Jody1234!

Our present cocker spaniel was like that JJ, we were also advised to let her have her first heat before spaying. Well the months went on, and on, and on!! In the end after consulting our vet, we had her done any way! She was fine and at last we could make some plans to have a life that didn't revolve round our home.

Oh FGS cats are not out killing all the time. I happen to be very fond of cats and had them all my life, although I totally understand that some people are not. They are totally different to dogs and yes they often have two homes in case one fails, how sensible is that!! We have a delightful little black puss who is extremely affectionate, loves a cuddle, and sleeps either indoors with our dog in her bed, or if she prefers, outside with our Exmoor Pony in his stable She does catch mice in our barn and generally has a pretty cushy life which she can leave whenever she chooses, no one makes her stay. I'd like to think that she only has one home but you can never be sure with a cat!