Prince Louie going through THAT stage

Joseanne I think he looks overwhelmed and just wanted to be left alone. Knowing when to back off with a child is as important as knowing when to intervene.

I agree about the professional tutters. I expect there were a few when my 3yo GD had a sit-down strike in a cafe when she wasn’t allowed a free lolly because she hadn’t eaten her lunch. She sat on the floor while I sat on a nearby chair for about ten minutes. She actually looked v like Louis, not shouting but that crossed arms defensive mode with a grumpy face.

Some tutter/do-gooder suggested I give her a lolly. Er, no. After about 10 mins GD stood up, said she was ready to eat her lunch, which she proceeded to do, and that was the end of it.

TBH, I thought it was far too long for him to be expected to behave for.

This is an interesting discussion.

How far should we go? Should I be expected to forego the interesting trip that I had been looking forward to for a couple of weeks and paid good money for, because a group of children want to scream and run around in a noisy and intrusive way? And the adult with them is unable to do anything about it? Do you think all of 10 or so of them were neurodivergent?

JoseanneI think he looks overwhelmed and just wanted to be left alone. Knowing when to back off with a child is as important as knowing when to intervene.

Exactly that SueDonim. No point adding to the conflict with smacks and yanking him off.

volver

This is an interesting discussion.

How far should we go? Should I be expected to forego the interesting trip that I had been looking forward to for a couple of weeks and paid good money for, because a group of children want to scream and run around in a noisy and intrusive way? And the adult with them is unable to do anything about it? Do you think all of 10 or so of them were neurodivergent?

You do not know that they were not.

Neurodiverse folks of all ages do go on trips they are not shut away in the 21st century, thank goodness…

Joseanne

What ever happened to inclusivity?

It makes you want to weep, doesn’t it?

A FB group I’m on recently wanted to improve local country paths so people in wheelchairs & with prams could use them. There was a huge protest against it where the disabled people were told they should go elsewhere and shouldn’t expect to be able to access things non-disabled people have - in their own area!

GrannyGravy13

volver

This is an interesting discussion.

How far should we go? Should I be expected to forego the interesting trip that I had been looking forward to for a couple of weeks and paid good money for, because a group of children want to scream and run around in a noisy and intrusive way? And the adult with them is unable to do anything about it? Do you think all of 10 or so of them were neurodivergent?

You do not know that they were not.

Neurodiverse folks of all ages do go on trips they are not shut away in the 21st century, thank goodness…

Neurodivergent or not, they ruined our trip.

Is it the general belief that I should just suck it up?

Serious question.

SueDonim

Joseanne

What ever happened to inclusivity?

It makes you want to weep, doesn’t it?

A FB group I’m on recently wanted to improve local country paths so people in wheelchairs & with prams could use them. There was a huge protest against it where the disabled people were told they should go elsewhere and shouldn’t expect to be able to access things non-disabled people have - in their own area!

It is so very sad that attitudes appear to be going backwards not forwards.

volver

This is an interesting discussion.

How far should we go? Should I be expected to forego the interesting trip that I had been looking forward to for a couple of weeks and paid good money for, because a group of children want to scream and run around in a noisy and intrusive way? And the adult with them is unable to do anything about it? Do you think all of 10 or so of them were neurodivergent?

Possibly. Neurodivergence can have a genetic component so who knows, they may have been siblings. Maybe the adult was at the end of their tether with the children they were caring for, having been up all night with them.

Did you ask if you could help in anyway or interact with them? I’ve done that when I’ve seen a difficult situation playing out. Mostly there is nothing to be done but sometimes just minding a shopping bag or watching a child is enough.

I guess it depends on one's tolerance levels, one's empathy with other people, and one's ability not to get riled by things about which one has no indepth knowledge.

SueDonim

volver

This is an interesting discussion.

How far should we go? Should I be expected to forego the interesting trip that I had been looking forward to for a couple of weeks and paid good money for, because a group of children want to scream and run around in a noisy and intrusive way? And the adult with them is unable to do anything about it? Do you think all of 10 or so of them were neurodivergent?

Possibly. Neurodivergence can have a genetic component so who knows, they may have been siblings. Maybe the adult was at the end of their tether with the children they were caring for, having been up all night with them.

Did you ask if you could help in anyway or interact with them? I’ve done that when I’ve seen a difficult situation playing out. Mostly there is nothing to be done but sometimes just minding a shopping bag or watching a child is enough.

A smile or an acknowledgment can make all the difference to a struggling parent/carer

Did you ask if you could help in anyway or interact with them?

Good lord no. And risk being called a do-gooder?

Sorry. I'm not buying it. Just call me the child-catcher, if you like.

(BTW - at least three of my friends have neurodivergent children. I'm not a complete ingenue)

Oops sorry posted too soon, and they take just the same amount of time/energy as a tut or filthy indignant look.

volver if you know neurodivergent children I am totally amazed at you lack of empathy.

If we are out in public we do have to suck up other people’s behaviour, assuming it’s not criminal, in which case you can contact the police.

We can’t control other people’s behaviour but we can control our own reactions. Getting riled doesn’t improve anyone’s situation. If we’ve been out somewhere where there’s a to-do going on, we’ve hung back until whatever it is has moved further on and then resumed our visit.

volver I am in agreement with SueDonim’s post of 14.40

There is nothing else to add.

Well they're all adults now. But anyway.

In the situation I am describing, 10 or so children who were not obviously related (but could have been, admittedly) were making the venue unbearable for anybody but themselves. It wasn't a large venue. These were not people who wanted to be treated the same as anyone else, by wanting to use a footpath in a wheelchair for instance. So to make that comparison is unfair.

These were children running amok and ruining everyone else's day. Literally. It was impossible to see the attractions properly because of the large groups of screaming children.

Think I said this before, yesterday. With rights come responsibilities.

Getting riled doesn’t improve anyone’s situation.

We didn't get riled. We left.

It was a lot for a boy his age to sit through.I loved seeing him with Charles,though I was wondering what Princess Anne was saying,I couldn't tell whether she was amused or not.

volver

Well they're all adults now. But anyway.

In the situation I am describing, 10 or so children who were not obviously related (but could have been, admittedly) were making the venue unbearable for anybody but themselves. It wasn't a large venue. These were not people who wanted to be treated the same as anyone else, by wanting to use a footpath in a wheelchair for instance. So to make that comparison is unfair.

These were children running amok and ruining everyone else's day. Literally. It was impossible to see the attractions properly because of the large groups of screaming children.

Think I said this before, yesterday. With rights come responsibilities.

Did you complain to the management at the time?

Were there staff on hand who did nothing?

Joseanne

I've just got back from a few hours in school and managed to grab a quick chat with a highly qualified, expereinced and wise member of staff who holds an SPLD diploma.
She has watched the footage several times over, and while we all agree that he was a very naughty little boy, her take on the incident was interesting. She suggested it could be a case of over disciplining and too much disapproval directed at the boy. Apparently if you watch all the video, at some time before Charlotte was laying into her brother about sucking his thumb, (actually copying and making fun of him), Mike was giving the evil glare, William leaned across with a frown to his wife, and Kate was doing her best to correct Louis in a reasoned manner. It could be likened to a pile on, and the little lad felt he was being told off from all angles. Often there is sadly no escape from this but to live up to the bad name others are giving, especially when you are cornered and can't articulate your feelings in a difficult situation

Moreover she notice that the little boy started slapping himself, so he obviously acknowledged his own misdemeanours afterwards.

As I said before, I think people should cut Louis and his mother some slack, or try to understand the predicament.

Oh dear the "scapegoat" child. Poor Louis. I do wonder why hasn't he got something to occupy himself with when it got too boring. When my GCs were that age and they had to sit anywhere for long periods we always had a bag of books etc to keep them busy.

GrannyGravy13

volver

Well they're all adults now. But anyway.

In the situation I am describing, 10 or so children who were not obviously related (but could have been, admittedly) were making the venue unbearable for anybody but themselves. It wasn't a large venue. These were not people who wanted to be treated the same as anyone else, by wanting to use a footpath in a wheelchair for instance. So to make that comparison is unfair.

These were children running amok and ruining everyone else's day. Literally. It was impossible to see the attractions properly because of the large groups of screaming children.

Think I said this before, yesterday. With rights come responsibilities.

Did you complain to the management at the time?

Were there staff on hand who did nothing?

No, because we do actually realise that people are supposed to suck it up.

Yes.

volver

^Getting riled doesn’t improve anyone’s situation.^

We didn't get riled. We left.

So why so riled now?
"gang, loud, selfish, screaming, annoying, ineffectual, noisy, intrusive, amok etc"

Because those are descriptive words for how they were behaving.

One can be descriptive without being riled.

volver

Well they're all adults now. But anyway.

In the situation I am describing, 10 or so children who were not obviously related (but could have been, admittedly) were making the venue unbearable for anybody but themselves. It wasn't a large venue. These were not people who wanted to be treated the same as anyone else, by wanting to use a footpath in a wheelchair for instance. So to make that comparison is unfair.

These were children running amok and ruining everyone else's day. Literally. It was impossible to see the attractions properly because of the large groups of screaming children.

Think I said this before, yesterday. With rights come responsibilities.

I'm not sure that this has anything to do with Louis' behaviour at the weekend (with which I have sympathy and blame the cameras for dwelling on it); but it is an interesting question in its own right.

When my two were little we went to Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh. Anyone who's been will know that you enter in a lift with other people, and stay with them as you move through the museum taking in eras from the Big Bang to the present day, and are guided around by a voice coming through individual headphones. In our group was a couple of those loud competitive parents with a pre-school age child and a toddler in a buggy - both clearly far too young for the venue (which I think is aimed at children of 7+ - the age was clearly signposted at the entrance though, so there was no excuse).

All the way round, the parents showed off their 'interaction' with the children 'Oh look, Tarquin! This is from the Palaeolithic era'! Tarquin spits out his dummy and reaches to his mum to indicate that he wants to get out of the buggy.

'Ariadne! Have you seen these igneous rocks? Ariadne!!! Ariadne reaches behind the cushion in the buggy for the chocolate bar her mum thinks she's hidden, and runs off, shrieking. None of them used the headphones - presumably they thought they were too knowledgeable to need a guide.

This went on for the whole 45 minutes we were there, and there was no real escape without leaving the venue. The parents brayed their observations to their bored and disengaged children who were far too young to learn anything from the experience, and were a right royal pain in the bum. Our children, and others of a similar (and more suitable) age, couldn't hear the guide through their headphones.

The trip finished in a planetarium. You lie down and look up at constellations, with a voiceover telling you what's what. My son was really interested in this, but none of us could hear, as Tarquin and Ariadne were running about between the patrons whilst their parents smiled indulgently, probably pleased to let them run off some energy before inflicting them on some other poor souls.

They ruined the experience for us, but there was nothing we could do, as there were no staff in the rooms. I've had a quick look, and in today's prices, entrance for two adults and two children costs £57. Under-fours like Ariadne and Tarquin are free, although why they were allowed in in the first place is beyond me.

I can't help thinking that parents should rid themselves of any ideas that their little dears are so much more advanced than 'normal children', and stick to the advertised age ranges. I've had theatre visits ruined by having my seat kicked by a child in the seat behind who is far too young for the performance. Yes, babysitters might be hard to find, but that really is on the parent, and not a problem for others in the audience to deal with.

When it comes to the disabled or neurodivergent I have mixed feelings. Some venues have days when they are open specially for them to visit, and I think that's a good idea; but I know that whereas some neurodivergent people are very noisy, others hate noise, so it's not going to be a catch-all solution.