Where are you from? Is it an insult?

DaisyAnne

They showed they are doing just that GagaJo. What more do you want to stop you from talking about this event?

Prejudice is only real and only matters to you if it is to do with being non "white". What seems to be an attack on people who are white because they are white (you keep defining them in that way) doesn't seem to strike you as racist.

Taxpayers come in all sorts. Whatever their colour or culture, all are entitled to a view of the RF. We tend to like decisions made by majorities, not pressure groups.

It is not and never will be all about one group. Of course, we should aim to treat people as equals - all people. If you keep moving the goalposts, however, and coming up with another sin others can commit, some will always be perceived to fail to come up to the new standard - however multicultural and tolerant they are.

People who take things to extremes for one group and one group only cannot be called egalitarian. They are not interested in equality for all.

That is just a reactionary gesture. It needs to be a wide spread programme. Diversity and Inclusivity training. A set % of staff need to be ethnically diverse. The staff will still be predominantly white, reflecting the population. But the odd token person of colour isn't enough.

For what it's worth, I think William is probably OK. He and Harry are brothers after all. But look at the horrific Princess Michael of Kent. Racist woman. And there is of course the member of the family that passed comment on the potential colour of Harry's baby.

They need to be seen to be doing what any good employer would do to stamp out racism.

The one group that is extremely represented is that of white people. I'm glad you feel that isn't egalitarian or equality.

I best take myself off to the Tower as all my employees are white at this moment in time.

GagaJo

That is just a reactionary gesture. It needs to be a wide spread programme. Diversity and Inclusivity training.

In my humble opinion, I don't think you can train people not to be racist. Racism comes from the 'heart' - it's an emotional reaction (my opinion is 'humble' because I think the issue is complex and I've not studied it enough to have an authoritative view).

You can train them to say and do the 'right' things - for sure - but to get to the root of racism, you need to understand why one individual decides that another is inferior. It could be because of 'education' (or lack of it), personal grievance, or a lack of understanding / information.

And there are degrees of racism - some are racist but wouldn't dream of using racist language on a personal level, others jump right in.

An acquaintance of mine who isn't shy of using racist terminology on occasions was the first to offer help to a newly-arrived local immigrant (from Thailand) when the man was looking around for a helping hand. He was surprised that we were surprised at his generosity and just said, "well the poor chap was in a pickle"...

vegansrock

But if they said they were British from London would you follow up with, “but where are you really from? “ That’s the potentially offensive bit.

Exactly- just depends how it is done! Not read every post, but this video came to mind.

youtu.be/crAv5ttax2I

I have a rather strange accent, and I am asked the question all the time, and I don't mind at all. But a very different situation.

From what I understand, the questions - questioning -seemed more like an 'interrogation' than the usual 'pleasantries' normal on such occasions.

Would this lady have spoken to her peers in a similar manner?

GrannyGravy13

I best take myself off to the Tower as all my employees are white at this moment in time.

Any idea why?

GagaJo

DaisyAnne

They showed they are doing just that GagaJo. What more do you want to stop you from talking about this event?

Prejudice is only real and only matters to you if it is to do with being non "white". What seems to be an attack on people who are white because they are white (you keep defining them in that way) doesn't seem to strike you as racist.

Taxpayers come in all sorts. Whatever their colour or culture, all are entitled to a view of the RF. We tend to like decisions made by majorities, not pressure groups.

It is not and never will be all about one group. Of course, we should aim to treat people as equals - all people. If you keep moving the goalposts, however, and coming up with another sin others can commit, some will always be perceived to fail to come up to the new standard - however multicultural and tolerant they are.

People who take things to extremes for one group and one group only cannot be called egalitarian. They are not interested in equality for all.

That is just a reactionary gesture. It needs to be a wide spread programme. Diversity and Inclusivity training. A set % of staff need to be ethnically diverse. The staff will still be predominantly white, reflecting the population. But the odd token person of colour isn't enough.

For what it's worth, I think William is probably OK. He and Harry are brothers after all. But look at the horrific Princess Michael of Kent. Racist woman. And there is of course the member of the family that passed comment on the potential colour of Harry's baby.

They need to be seen to be doing what any good employer would do to stamp out racism.

The one group that is extremely represented is that of white people. I'm glad you feel that isn't egalitarian or equality.

It might help if you explain why you -it is your opinion not a fact - my post is a "reactionary gesture". What exactly do you mean by that. Do you actually know what it means - in relation to my post or is it just groupspeak used by the small pressure groups you support?

By the way, that's another personal racially based insult I have added to the list - unless you can give a comprehensive explanation of course.

Fleurpepper

GrannyGravy13

I best take myself off to the Tower as all my employees are white at this moment in time.

Any idea why?

The best people who applied for the jobs at this moment in time perhaps?

Fleurpepper you can only interview people if they apply for a position.

It is immaterial what ethnicity they are, if they have the ability and drive to do the job along with being a team player and a credible reference we are happy to give folks a chance.

Our business is in a diverse ethnic community. Predominantly Asian and Eastern European communities who tend to want employment within their own communities.

Just to add our customer base is varied.

We supply different services to different companies.

Our individual customers have become friends over the years and I bake cakes for them and they supply me with fragrant Indian spice mixes and Easter European recipes and delicacies.

Dickens

GagaJo

That is just a reactionary gesture. It needs to be a wide spread programme. Diversity and Inclusivity training.

In my humble opinion, I don't think you can train people not to be racist. Racism comes from the 'heart' - it's an emotional reaction (my opinion is 'humble' because I think the issue is complex and I've not studied it enough to have an authoritative view).

You can train them to say and do the 'right' things - for sure - but to get to the root of racism, you need to understand why one individual decides that another is inferior. It could be because of 'education' (or lack of it), personal grievance, or a lack of understanding / information.

And there are degrees of racism - some are racist but wouldn't dream of using racist language on a personal level, others jump right in.

An acquaintance of mine who isn't shy of using racist terminology on occasions was the first to offer help to a newly-arrived local immigrant (from Thailand) when the man was looking around for a helping hand. He was surprised that we were surprised at his generosity and just said, "well the poor chap was in a pickle"...

I don't think it's just a case of not being able to "train" people. You end up alienating people who would otherwise want the changes you want.

Anyone who knows anything about organisational behaviour will tell you this will not change how people act or carry them with you. I cannot imagine anyone standing back and studying the issue of racism in the UK, telling those who want to change it to go out and bully people, call them names and then take them off, as if we live in China or similar, and "re-educate" them.

DaisyAnne

Dickens

GagaJo

That is just a reactionary gesture. It needs to be a wide spread programme. Diversity and Inclusivity training.

In my humble opinion, I don't think you can train people not to be racist. Racism comes from the 'heart' - it's an emotional reaction (my opinion is 'humble' because I think the issue is complex and I've not studied it enough to have an authoritative view).

You can train them to say and do the 'right' things - for sure - but to get to the root of racism, you need to understand why one individual decides that another is inferior. It could be because of 'education' (or lack of it), personal grievance, or a lack of understanding / information.

And there are degrees of racism - some are racist but wouldn't dream of using racist language on a personal level, others jump right in.

An acquaintance of mine who isn't shy of using racist terminology on occasions was the first to offer help to a newly-arrived local immigrant (from Thailand) when the man was looking around for a helping hand. He was surprised that we were surprised at his generosity and just said, "well the poor chap was in a pickle"...

I don't think it's just a case of not being able to "train" people. You end up alienating people who would otherwise want the changes you want.

Anyone who knows anything about organisational behaviour will tell you this will not change how people act or carry them with you. I cannot imagine anyone standing back and studying the issue of racism in the UK, telling those who want to change it to go out and bully people, call them names and then take them off, as if we live in China or similar, and "re-educate" them.

In the 90's I was in a multicultural team responsible for delivering a range of anti-racist/multicultural training to senior management teams. This was in educational institutions in a large culturally diverse city. I would agree that to a large extent you can't train people to be anti-racist but you can stop them from behaving in a a racist way by having policies in place, by monitoring the effectiveness of those policies and by sanctioning anyone who doesn't follow those policies. I know we have moved on a great deal since those days, I was Chair of Governors in a school for several years pre covid and have seen that the policies and ways of doing things eg Recruitment and selection are seen as standard practice whereas in the 90's they were seen somewhat differently! Don't challenge the person, never aggressively but do challenge the behaviour is the way I see things and make it easy for people to behave properly by making it clear what behaviours are acceptable. I think most people like to be a valid part of the group, if most people in the group behave appropriately they carry the odd straggler along with them.

I've seen children come into school with racist ideology they've picked up from their parents. An educational system tries to show them that everyone is equal. And holds them responsible for racist, discriminatory behaviour. Which is exactly what society, businesses and yes, the royal machine, should do.

The royals are lagging behind. They need to catch up.

I think lot depends on the tone of your voice and the expression on your face.

foxie48

DaisyAnne

Dickens

GagaJo

That is just a reactionary gesture. It needs to be a wide spread programme. Diversity and Inclusivity training.

In my humble opinion, I don't think you can train people not to be racist. Racism comes from the 'heart' - it's an emotional reaction (my opinion is 'humble' because I think the issue is complex and I've not studied it enough to have an authoritative view).

You can train them to say and do the 'right' things - for sure - but to get to the root of racism, you need to understand why one individual decides that another is inferior. It could be because of 'education' (or lack of it), personal grievance, or a lack of understanding / information.

And there are degrees of racism - some are racist but wouldn't dream of using racist language on a personal level, others jump right in.

An acquaintance of mine who isn't shy of using racist terminology on occasions was the first to offer help to a newly-arrived local immigrant (from Thailand) when the man was looking around for a helping hand. He was surprised that we were surprised at his generosity and just said, "well the poor chap was in a pickle"...

I don't think it's just a case of not being able to "train" people. You end up alienating people who would otherwise want the changes you want.

Anyone who knows anything about organisational behaviour will tell you this will not change how people act or carry them with you. I cannot imagine anyone standing back and studying the issue of racism in the UK, telling those who want to change it to go out and bully people, call them names and then take them off, as if we live in China or similar, and "re-educate" them.

In the 90's I was in a multicultural team responsible for delivering a range of anti-racist/multicultural training to senior management teams. This was in educational institutions in a large culturally diverse city. I would agree that to a large extent you can't train people to be anti-racist but you can stop them from behaving in a a racist way by having policies in place, by monitoring the effectiveness of those policies and by sanctioning anyone who doesn't follow those policies. I know we have moved on a great deal since those days, I was Chair of Governors in a school for several years pre covid and have seen that the policies and ways of doing things eg Recruitment and selection are seen as standard practice whereas in the 90's they were seen somewhat differently! Don't challenge the person, never aggressively but do challenge the behaviour is the way I see things and make it easy for people to behave properly by making it clear what behaviours are acceptable. I think most people like to be a valid part of the group, if most people in the group behave appropriately they carry the odd straggler along with them.

All that sounds very sensible foxie. Certainly, it's better than beating people up on GN because they don't wholly share your extreme views about people we know nothing about, in circumstances of which we were not part.

This point is especially true when those attacked want greater equality. Such people would probably be interested if, as you suggest, changes are introduced in an acceptable, tactful and polite way. Let's face it, these mores of society will also change in future times and differing circumstances.

Everyone is entitled to their views. As long as it isn't outside the law, they are also entitled to behave according to those views. What they are not "entitled" to do is insist others adhere to the extremes of their personal stance.

What we are discussing is often just about how manners have changed. Teaching a child to be polite is something all Grannies have done in the past. We know you need to enable an understanding of why you are asking them to behave in a particular way. You would also ask them to respect the fact that everyone will not agree with them. Explaining why they see a particular behaviour as polite and considerate is probably the best anyone can do in a social setting. GN is a social setting; it is not a place of work. Most people will listen and probably continue to think about what they have heard if it is both accessible and polite. In such circumstances, a warm drip, drip works far better than tipping a cold bath of water over people.

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

GrannyGravy13

I best take myself off to the Tower as all my employees are white at this moment in time.

Any idea why?

The best people who applied for the jobs at this moment in time perhaps?

Yes, that is the answer regularly given.

However ...

Fleurpepper

vegansrock

But if they said they were British from London would you follow up with, “but where are you really from? “ That’s the potentially offensive bit.

Exactly- just depends how it is done! Not read every post, but this video came to mind.

youtu.be/crAv5ttax2I

I have a rather strange accent, and I am asked the question all the time, and I don't mind at all. But a very different situation.

Good video but of course it will sweep over many an ignorant head.

foxie48

In the 90's I was in a multicultural team responsible for delivering a range of anti-racist/multicultural training to senior management teams. This was in educational institutions in a large culturally diverse city. I would agree that to a large extent you can't train people to be anti-racist but you can stop them from behaving in a a racist way by having policies in place, by monitoring the effectiveness of those policies and by sanctioning anyone who doesn't follow those policies.

The only problem I see with this is sanctioning.

Actions speak louder than words - so, yes - someone who deliberately sets out on a racist agenda clearly has to be stopped in their tracks.

But sanctioning people because they use the wrong terminology - quite often inadvertently - when there is no intent to offend is, IMO, completely counterproductive.

An example (one I've witnessed)... if an individual refers to an ethnic minority as "that coloured chap" because she doesn't remember his name but to all intents and purposes has never shown herself to be racist - should she be sanctioned for the culturally incorrect terminology?

This lady lives in my street. A new arrival from London has taken up residence. He has a name which is difficult to pronounce. This lady has taken cuttings from her garden to give to him to get him started on his own rather large garden - but can't remember his name. That's how she referred to him. Should we sanction such people?

Dickens

foxie48

In the 90's I was in a multicultural team responsible for delivering a range of anti-racist/multicultural training to senior management teams. This was in educational institutions in a large culturally diverse city. I would agree that to a large extent you can't train people to be anti-racist but you can stop them from behaving in a a racist way by having policies in place, by monitoring the effectiveness of those policies and by sanctioning anyone who doesn't follow those policies.

The only problem I see with this is sanctioning.

Actions speak louder than words - so, yes - someone who deliberately sets out on a racist agenda clearly has to be stopped in their tracks.

But sanctioning people because they use the wrong terminology - quite often inadvertently - when there is no intent to offend is, IMO, completely counterproductive.

An example (one I've witnessed)... if an individual refers to an ethnic minority as "that coloured chap" because she doesn't remember his name but to all intents and purposes has never shown herself to be racist - should she be sanctioned for the culturally incorrect terminology?

This lady lives in my street. A new arrival from London has taken up residence. He has a name which is difficult to pronounce. This lady has taken cuttings from her garden to give to him to get him started on his own rather large garden - but can't remember his name. That's how she referred to him. Should we sanction such people?

I can only agree with you Dickens. Sadly, I have got the impression that some would actually like a form of sanctions, moderated by them, on GN.

Fleurpepper

Yes, that is the answer regularly given.

However…..

…… just say what you’re implying.

tickingbird

Fleurpepper

Yes, that is the answer regularly given.

However…..

…… just say what you’re implying.

I have got an early New Year’s resolution which is to ignore people who are posting/talking rubbish.

Dickens

foxie48

In the 90's I was in a multicultural team responsible for delivering a range of anti-racist/multicultural training to senior management teams. This was in educational institutions in a large culturally diverse city. I would agree that to a large extent you can't train people to be anti-racist but you can stop them from behaving in a a racist way by having policies in place, by monitoring the effectiveness of those policies and by sanctioning anyone who doesn't follow those policies.

The only problem I see with this is sanctioning.

Actions speak louder than words - so, yes - someone who deliberately sets out on a racist agenda clearly has to be stopped in their tracks.

But sanctioning people because they use the wrong terminology - quite often inadvertently - when there is no intent to offend is, IMO, completely counterproductive.

An example (one I've witnessed)... if an individual refers to an ethnic minority as "that coloured chap" because she doesn't remember his name but to all intents and purposes has never shown herself to be racist - should she be sanctioned for the culturally incorrect terminology?

This lady lives in my street. A new arrival from London has taken up residence. He has a name which is difficult to pronounce. This lady has taken cuttings from her garden to give to him to get him started on his own rather large garden - but can't remember his name. That's how she referred to him. Should we sanction such people?

How on earth could you "sanction" a neighbour? I think it's pretty clear from my post that I am talking about my experience in a workplace, where the employer can and should set out standards of behaviour in order to comply with legislation.

tickingbird

Fleurpepper

Yes, that is the answer regularly given.

However…..

…… just say what you’re implying.

Did you watch the Programme last night about accents, and the influence they have on educational achievements and expectations, and employment? I remember Mervyn Bragg saying how he had to quickly get rid of his Northern accent when he went to Grammar school and on to Uni. Our prejudices are often not acknowledged and subtly hidden by all sorts of other factors. I know of 2 people who, with Brexit, made the explicit decision to only employ 'British' people, in Ye Olde fashioned sense. For many, the decision is more subtle ... but prejudice of class, accent, school, ethnicity, etc are very much part of it.

Prejudices related to colour or origins are can also run very deep, so deep that they are hidden from the outside. And it is not rubbish- and has been clearly demonstrated by serious studies.

I asked a serious question, a pity it was not answered by poster.

Apologies, the poster did reply, thanks.

Mervyn Bragg saying how he had to quickly get rid of his Northern accent when he went to Grammar school and on to Uni

That was then.

Melvyn Bragg is 83, a product of the 1950s grammar school system, where many of us had elocution lessons as part of the curriculum to enable us to get good jobs in later life. BBC pronunciation was of importance but even so, all this education and elocution lessons did not eradicate our accents totally.

Melvyn Bragg still has a less pronounced accent, as do I and many other people I grew up with.

Strong accents do not hold people back now although clear diction is essential still in some careers.