Public speaking

I really don't agree with forcing something really, really uncomfortable onto a child.
It used to take me every bit of courage I had to say "yes miss" when the register was called.

People have different strengths and abilities, and extrovert isn't 'better' than introvert.

Mollygo

But the north does have bursars. Just because you work at a school that only has a lowly paid secretary, (and I’ve yet to find a school that only has a lowly paid ‘secretary’ nowadays), it doesn’t mean that no other schools in the north have bursars or school business managers or administration assistants or anybody the variety of titles which mean they do more than just secretarial work.

Love your ‘gentrification’. A rather snobby way of explaining words that seem to make you feel uncomfortable.

If you’ve worked in a school recently, you would know that phone calls go to the office, so that the person can be directed to the appropriate member of staff or arrange an appointment. Visitors to the school are greeted by the office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc,) and directed to the appropriate place, member of staff or enabled to arrange an appointment.
The office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc,
also respond to parents arriving to collect a child early. All this in addition to the financial and other tasks necessary to keep a school running.
As for them acting as a means of communication between parents teachers and head teachers, perhaps that's one of the great problems with primary education today
The more you say about that, the more obvious it is that you don’t understand the communication, but that’s your problem.
They aren’t like GP receptionists, they don’t make decisions about who you can see and when and what for.
At your school, are you saying that parents walk into the reception area, are ignored by your lowly paid ‘secretary’ and the head senses their presence and immediately abandons phone calls, meetings, dealing with children etc. to go and deal with every parent who arrives? I don’t believe it.

Of course I understand communication. Just as you should know that since Covid most primary schools require children to be brought into the playground where their class teachers or a TA greet them, and to be escorted into the playground at home time, when they are seen to be collected by an appropriate adult. That actually most classroom problems can be tackled by a teacher who speaks to a parent as the children are collected, or a parent who speaks to a teacher, and asks for a meeting, then, or when the teacher can manage. And that that remains the most successful means of caring and providing for the average child. Of course there are problems that require more in depth meetings, of course some parents don't collect their children so might have problems with this.

Anyone who thinks that a secretary or head needs to always be involved is simply mistaken.

Anyone who thinks parents go into any school reception area hasn't taken a child to school since Covid and possibly since the Dunblane shooting.

Education isn't just about delivering lessons. It's about communicating a child's needs and difficulties and that is best done by direct contact with parents.
Although I have worked in schools where that wasn't possible because of threats and violence those cases are very rare.

As I said Managers making out they are necessary where they aren't isn't helpful. School secretaries managed for years and always knew they were there to facilitate not to manage teachers and parents.

Via your comments, you evidently know even less about school administration than I thought Glorianny, and I didn’t think you actually knew much.

All you’ve just posted about collecting children and using that as a chance to speak to a teacher has been already mentioned, so you have picked up some valid information at least. Well done.

Parents who can’t get into school to pick their children up can and sometimes do send a note, but usually call at the office (and are admitted after pressing the buzzer and declaring who they are ever since Dunblane), or ring the school.
Are you still saying the phone calls are not taken by the office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc.) and passed on to the appropriate person if available or used to make an appointment? 🤣🤣🤣

My 10 year old granddaughter had to do this last year, but as she was so nervous, she was allowed to do it just in front of the teacher. She had to do it again a few weeks ago and this time practised loads of times in front of mam and dad and us. She didn't really enjoy doing it, but managed in front of a class of 25. She was chuffed to bits that she managed it and to be fair the teacher told her that she'd come on in leaps and bounds since last year

Mollygo

Via your comments, you evidently know even less about school administration than I thought Glorianny, and I didn’t think you actually knew much.

All you’ve just posted about collecting children and using that as a chance to speak to a teacher has been already mentioned, so you have picked up some valid information at least. Well done.

Parents who can’t get into school to pick their children up can and sometimes do send a note, but usually call at the office (and are admitted after pressing the buzzer and declaring who they are ever since Dunblane), or ring the school.
Are you still saying the phone calls are not taken by the office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc.) and passed on to the appropriate person if available or used to make an appointment? 🤣🤣🤣

No phone calls have always been taken by the school secretary (or the TA parachuted in to do the job, or even a year 6 child tasked with phone answering as part of their spoken English requirement ). Of course parents ring the buzzer and are admitted - (child answers "You will have to wait while I find a responsible adult-I always loved that one).
That 's slightly different to your "parents walking into the reception area" scenario.
I love the way you change tack when it suits you.

Nothing but nothing beats open communication between parent and teacher.

And however good someone may be and whatever name they may choose to call themselves, their job should never be regarded as essential to that communication.

I notice you haven't bothered to look at the report I linked to earlier and the discrepancy between the North and South reporting. Too much effort perhaps.

REXF - doing things we don't want to do CAN be character building but can equally be soul destroying. Generalisations in the world of social psychology need to be backed up by numerous randomly controlled experiments and I know for certain that being forced to stand up as a child and speak in front of others is not significantly correlated with the development of future confidence. I agree completely with the idea of hurdles, achievements and development but education is just that, education and not training - a child with Generalised Anxiety Disorder (presenting merely as shy at the age of 9) can be irreparably damaged not developed by having to take the stage. There's more than one way for teachers to examine whether educational and behavioural objectives have been achieved and unfortunately some schools seem not to be sufficiently enlightened in their educational leadership to think outside the box and work in the true interests of the children in their care.

Helenlouise3

My 10 year old granddaughter had to do this last year, but as she was so nervous, she was allowed to do it just in front of the teacher. She had to do it again a few weeks ago and this time practised loads of times in front of mam and dad and us. She didn't really enjoy doing it, but managed in front of a class of 25. She was chuffed to bits that she managed it and to be fair the teacher told her that she'd come on in leaps and bounds since last year

That's good to hear, Helenlouise. Most people don't enjoy public speaking, but like most things, if it's introduced gradually it can be less scary, and some people will come to like it.

I was rubbish at sport at school, and particularly feared the high jump, as I panicked when I ran towards the jump - I don't think I ever got beyond 2'6", however hard I tried. Seeing the other children lined up watching made it even worse. I dreaded PE lessons, and never got any better at sport in general and the high jump in particular.

In those days there was no question of my being allowed to do something different, or of lowering the bar to something I could manage. The thinking was that everyone is good at something, and someone who wasn't good at other subjects would get the chance to be good at sport, which they couldn't be unless someone (eg me) was bad at it.

I'm in no way saying that that is a compassionate or constructive way to teach - as I say, I've never gained a love of sport - but there is some truth in it, and unless someone is bad at everything, it does no harm to learn where one's weaknesses lie, as well as one's strengths. If a reluctant speaker is praised for making the effort, even if the speech itself isn't very good, or the high jumper can be credited for being able to step over a bar 6 inches off the floor, maybe both will learn that effort is as important as ability?

I notice you haven't bothered to look at the report I linked to earlier and the discrepancy between the North and South

You’re right I didn’t. I was too busy enjoying your obvious ignorance of life in present day primaries anywhere in the country, your use of ‘gentrification’ to describe any words you don’t like and your claims about knowing what those ‘up North’ know as b******t without the slightest knowledge of where I live and work.
Being qualified (by living up North) at recognising b******t, I could certainly recognise yours.🤣🤣

???!! Why was a nine years old forced to partake anyway? R u in UK?

And the "character building" rubbish is just that- rubbish! Trying new things when we're aware that we're going to maybe fail but it's no big deal is fine, but a child? Never ! They're not equipped psychologically to cope with what can be a very public humiliation , and this should never be enforced on kids under say 15 at least. Dangerous and Ill advised.

Mollygo

^I notice you haven't bothered to look at the report I linked to earlier and the discrepancy between the North and South^

You’re right I didn’t. I was too busy enjoying your obvious ignorance of life in present day primaries anywhere in the country, your use of ‘gentrification’ to describe any words you don’t like and your claims about knowing what those ‘up North’ know as b******t without the slightest knowledge of where I live and work.
Being qualified (by living up North) at recognising b******t, I could certainly recognise yours.🤣🤣

But if it is true it doesn't matter because it doesn't fit your narrow perceptions. As I said had you looked at the link and the map we might have had an interesting discussion as to why so few reports came from the North (and as you won't look you will just have to accept my word for it).
Is it for example linked to funding?
The North didn't respond.
That isn't my perception it is simply true.

"Gentrification" is an expression I used because the term "bursar" has always been linked to private schools and to Universities in the UK.

But you never answered my query about why more managers are acceptable in education but castigated in the NHS

Gabrielle56

???!! Why was a nine years old forced to partake anyway? R u in UK?

Op is in Scotland.
It’s not necessarily the end of the world for a child being expected to speak to the 20 / 30 children he spends all day every day with.

Unless it really is a problem; and in that case a parent or guardian needs to speak with the teacher involved, so that the child’s needs can be catered for.
Which they absolutely would be.

I think that most posters will agree with this summary

trisher

But you never answered my query about why more managers are acceptable in education but castigated in the NHS

Why would I? I don’t understand your
Why are more managers acceptable in education?
To which more managers are you referring?

It’s not necessarily the end of the world for a child being expected to speak to the 20 / 30 children he spends all day every day with.

Unless it really is a problem; and in that case a parent or guardian needs to speak with the teacher involved, so that the child’s needs can be catered for.
Which they absolutely would be.

I think that most posters will agree with this summary

Yes indeed FC

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

Doodledog

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

As I posted before the only courses in which oral presentation was actually regarded as an essential for assessment were foreign languages and drama. I wonder there is a lot of information and advice about people who have a stutter. Would you offer them alternative arrangements?

G
Would you offer them alternative arrangements?
It already happens. Do keep up!

Mollygo

G
Would you offer them alternative arrangements?
It already happens. Do keep up!

But Doodledogdoesn't approve of adaptations for anyone with anxiety Mollygo so why should someone with a stammer be accommodated.?
I didn't say they weren't by the way just asked if Doodledog approved of adaptations.
Still thanks for doing what my mum termed "picking me up before I fell down"

I wish they didn’t force children to do this. I was an extremely shy child and being forced to give presentations or speeches was not helpful in any way. I outgrew my shyness by growing up and experiencing life without the “help” of these forced situations. I’m a retired teacher!

Do you know, Glorianny or trisher or whatever else you call yourself, why do you get so much pleasure out of criticising people for things they haven’t said or twisting things they have said to fit what you want them to say.
It’s nothing to do with this thread, but you keep doing it -so why?

Most parents are able to contact the child’s teacher via their work email. In fact in some schools, this is the recommended method for making the initial contact. This works well for parents who work, with the teacher then perhaps offering to ring the parent if it is deemed necessary.

Once children move to a high school, the distance involved could well prevent the parent from having a quick word so emailing works better at that stage.

Glorianny

Doodledog

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

As I posted before the only courses in which oral presentation was actually regarded as an essential for assessment were foreign languages and drama. I wonder there is a lot of information and advice about people who have a stutter. Would you offer them alternative arrangements?

I don't understand what you're saying. 'the only courses in which oral presentation was regarded as essential . . . .' Do you mean in your personal experience? Or are you aware of all courses' assessment methods and professional body requirements?

It doesn't come down to what I would do, as I've said. It comes down to the requirements of professional bodies and university policies. You are also putting words in my mouth when you tell me what I approve of, and that is yet another personal attack. Again, what I approve of is not important.

My point was made in the context of the student who took her life, and who had been introduced to the thread by another poster. As I've said all along, it is tragic, but blaming the presentation she was expected to make is unreasonable. Even her parents said so. Students are young adults, and they and their parents need to take personal responsibility for deciding on courses and career paths.

The whole premise of degrees is based on rewarding some skills and 'eliminating' candidates at every stage. GCSEs, A levels, then university assignments or exams all allow some through to the next stage and leave some behind. Students have only got to university because others with lesser skills have been eliminated.

Maybe it would be fairer if everyone could choose how they wanted to be assessed so that they had the best chance to show what they could do. That would make life a lot easier all round. But it isn't possible without significantly more investment, and even then people would moan that it was too easy to get a degree and they aren't worth what they used to be when only 5% of people got them. Also, admissions would have to take into account things such as personality and teamwork skills if everyone had similar UCAS points. How do you think they would be measured?

If I had the power you seem to think I do, I'd be happy to vote for 'allowing' as many assessment types as there are students, so long as we could have staff to grade them and a means of making them comparable. I'm all for opening access to anyone who can benefit from an education, as I have regularly argued on other threads for years.

But we can't. And as someone who has spent decades at the sharp end, I was simply pointing out that balancing students who want to opt out of what doesn't suit them, peers who complain that it's not fair if they have to do it and others don't, helicopter parents who want special treatment but also professional body accreditation for their adult children, the professional bodies who want their members to know what they are getting when they employ graduates from courses with their 'stamp' on them, university management wanting to keep numbers of students high and staff low, and staff who have to mark increasingly unfeasible numbers of assessments is not easy, and on balance, I feel that anyone scared of presentations should choose a different course, and anyone with very poor MH should consider whether going away to study is the best course of action until it has been brought under control.

There are many adaptations made for people with disabilities to help them to be able to take assessments. That is as it should be. After those adjustments have been made, however, letting people opt out of assignments that others have to sit causes bad feeling and is, IMO, unfair. As I have also said already, there are often options that can be chosen to pick a pathway through a degree that won't involve presentations, and by no means all courses have them (although they are very commonplace). Where there is professional body insistence, the career that the course will lead to will also require graduates to make presentations, or it would not be there.

Would you offer someone who is incapable of doing an essential part of a job pass a degree that says they can? What about a teacher who couldn't bear to speak in front of a class of children because of anxiety or a stutter? Should they be able to write an essay about it instead? Could you justify that to other students, colleagues, Heads, or to the parents of the student when they complained that their child was unemployable? If so, how?

Again, Aveline, I apologise for the hijack. None of what I have said about universities applies to a 9 year old boy, and I have every sympathy for him, and for you, who is justified in worrying about him

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

As I posted before the only courses in which oral presentation was actually regarded as an essential for assessment were foreign languages and drama. I wonder there is a lot of information and advice about people who have a stutter. Would you offer them alternative arrangements?

I don't understand what you're saying. 'the only courses in which oral presentation was regarded as essential . . . .' Do you mean in your personal experience? Or are you aware of all courses' assessment methods and professional body requirements?

It doesn't come down to what I would do, as I've said. It comes down to the requirements of professional bodies and university policies. You are also putting words in my mouth when you tell me what I approve of, and that is yet another personal attack. Again, what I approve of is not important.

My point was made in the context of the student who took her life, and who had been introduced to the thread by another poster. As I've said all along, it is tragic, but blaming the presentation she was expected to make is unreasonable. Even her parents said so. Students are young adults, and they and their parents need to take personal responsibility for deciding on courses and career paths.

The whole premise of degrees is based on rewarding some skills and 'eliminating' candidates at every stage. GCSEs, A levels, then university assignments or exams all allow some through to the next stage and leave some behind. Students have only got to university because others with lesser skills have been eliminated.

Maybe it would be fairer if everyone could choose how they wanted to be assessed so that they had the best chance to show what they could do. That would make life a lot easier all round. But it isn't possible without significantly more investment, and even then people would moan that it was too easy to get a degree and they aren't worth what they used to be when only 5% of people got them. Also, admissions would have to take into account things such as personality and teamwork skills if everyone had similar UCAS points. How do you think they would be measured?

If I had the power you seem to think I do, I'd be happy to vote for 'allowing' as many assessment types as there are students, so long as we could have staff to grade them and a means of making them comparable. I'm all for opening access to anyone who can benefit from an education, as I have regularly argued on other threads for years.

But we can't. And as someone who has spent decades at the sharp end, I was simply pointing out that balancing students who want to opt out of what doesn't suit them, peers who complain that it's not fair if they have to do it and others don't, helicopter parents who want special treatment but also professional body accreditation for their adult children, the professional bodies who want their members to know what they are getting when they employ graduates from courses with their 'stamp' on them, university management wanting to keep numbers of students high and staff low, and staff who have to mark increasingly unfeasible numbers of assessments is not easy, and on balance, I feel that anyone scared of presentations should choose a different course, and anyone with very poor MH should consider whether going away to study is the best course of action until it has been brought under control.

There are many adaptations made for people with disabilities to help them to be able to take assessments. That is as it should be. After those adjustments have been made, however, letting people opt out of assignments that others have to sit causes bad feeling and is, IMO, unfair. As I have also said already, there are often options that can be chosen to pick a pathway through a degree that won't involve presentations, and by no means all courses have them (although they are very commonplace). Where there is professional body insistence, the career that the course will lead to will also require graduates to make presentations, or it would not be there.

Would you offer someone who is incapable of doing an essential part of a job pass a degree that says they can? What about a teacher who couldn't bear to speak in front of a class of children because of anxiety or a stutter? Should they be able to write an essay about it instead? Could you justify that to other students, colleagues, Heads, or to the parents of the student when they complained that their child was unemployable? If so, how?

Ooh I remember when it was said teachers in wheelchairs couldn't do the job and when it was said blind teachers couldn't do the job, now apparently its anxiety or a stutter.

Incidentally the information about the only degrees really needing an oral presentation came from a support for students who stammer

There are only limited cases where a university is likely to be justified in insisting on assessments being oral and assessing oral skills, if the student would prefer it to be in writing. Examples of these exceptions are foreign language oral assessments, and performing arts courses

www.stammeringlaw.org.uk/education/university-college/oral-exams-adjustments/oral-exams-rules/.

I think these discussions are actually applicable and interesting as far as the thread is concerned because they reveal that much as we may believe disability rights are applied and protected by law, there are still individuals involved in education, at all levels who fail to understand, appreciate, or apply the social model of disability, and cling to the old concept that one size fits all and the individual needs to change not the system.

What does your source have to say about lawyers, teachers, communication professionals, speech therapists, training and development specialists, actors, radio journalists etc etc?

Of course you have ignored the question about the schoolteacher who was too anxious to stand in front of a class. Should she/he pass a PGCE and be allowed to go into teaching? Should s/he be encouraged to look at other careers? Should s/he be allowed to write an essay instead? If s/he went on to be your colleague, would you be happy to cover his or her classes on top of your own? If you were the Head would you be happy for your other staff to be asked to cover for a member of staff who wasn't able to teach? How would you manage their workloads? Would you employ someone as a teacher who couldn't stand in front of a class at all? Would you be happy to have your children or grandchildren taught by such a person?

The same applies to a stammer if it makes the teacher incomprehensible.