Neopronouns

In fact, (apart from mine) there are at least 3 examples of singular use of the pronouns I mentioned on this thread

Which just proves its not worth overthinking

Doodle

Violetsky yes I see what you mean about They cut me up and I would say that. What happens though if someone said I saw a person outside taking to their manager and they indicated they would like a cup of coffee. How would you know if one or two cups of coffee were required?

“ A person” and”a cup of coffee”
If you’d said “Some people” then the “they” is clearly plural and you’d have asked “how many?”

FarNorth

^For clarity then: Should it be “I agree with Hattie when they say …..”?^

Only if Hattie wants people to use 'they' in that way.

I agree with your neighbour “when he or she says” but “I agree with a persons neighbour when they say “ is perfectly normal. VS’s examples show how straightforward it can be.

Neopronouns = codswallop IMO 🥱

I am happy to say that I feel that at rising 75 I am old enough to continue to use the language I have spoken all my life without all this rubbish !

Basically gender neutral pronouns matter and not only do we need them, we all use them.

So it really isn't a case of any demographic of people trying to twist language for their own personal use. It's always been there in our generations and in the age of equality we all need it. All of us.

For the new pronouns people have created, you don't have to use them. So there probably isn't any point worrying about what others prefer... unless you personally know and do want to communicate with them, in which case, is it someone whose feelings you want to hurt? Does it matter if you agree with it? Does it matter if you agree they need it? What matters is who they are as a person and good people are worth a little extra care. Think of it like a nickname which is a term of endearment.. using their chosen pronouns will tell them you respect and care about them

As someone with a late teens grandchild who is wanting to change gender, I can endorse how hard it is to remember to use "they" - in my aged mind it is a plural. But I wish to try and respect their wishes, and do my best.

I have told them that I love them dearly and will sometimes get it wrong.

There are times when the sense can be gleaned; but at others it can't.

Take someone with three children, who are all referred to as 'they', to avoid singling out an NB one. If you say 'I spoke to Arabella yesterday about Bob and Caroline's Christmas arrangements, and they are coming to me on Saturday.' it could mean that A is coming on her own, A,B and C are all coming, or that B and C are coming and A is staying behind.

Separating the singular from the plural removes that ambiguity. 'I spoke to A about B and C's arrangements, and she is coming on Saturday' means something very different. A is coming and B and C are not. 'I spoke to A about B and C's arrangements, and B and C are coming' means that A is staying away, and '. . . . 'they' are all coming', where 'they' is known to be plural speaks for itself.

Words matter, and trans ideology means that we are losing the ability to communicate. We no longer know what a woman (or a man) means - even asking that can be considered a leading question - and now there is ambiguity between singular and plural. Taking away (or reducing) the vocabulary we have to express ideas takes away (or reduces) the concepts we can discuss.

You were one of those who used it yourself doodledog

Trans people have nothing to do with it

doodle is this thread about trans people? If so I'll go chat somewhere else

'They' can be used as singular when it is not referring to anyone in particular. So' if someone did X what would happen'? can be replied to with 'They would not know' (or whatever.)

It is when the pronoun refers to named people that it matters, as it is attached to a singular person or a group of people, and there is a difference.

No Violetsky I hope I made that clear in my OP. I did genuinely read an article in the paper this morning which mentioned ze and zir and I was wondering what people who used those terms were thinking about themselves. Like did those words have any particular qualities. I am ignorant about a lot of this which is why I looked up personal pronouns and came across the kitten thing.
I have to confess I find it difficult to understand non binary. I’m female born and have never wanted to be anything else. I do have a remote family member who was male and is transitioning to female and I can understand that but I find it difficult to understand what someone who considers themselves non binary feels.
I cannot of course control how the thread goes but no, that was certainly not my intention.

Thank you

It can be quite hard to get your head around it all sometimes

But honestly it sounds like you care and want to get it right and I think that matters more to people than getting it wrong sometimes

I can't understand how someone NB feels, Doodle, as I don't feel that people fit into stereotypes. I am a woman, but I sometimes wear trousers, and sometimes drink pints or cut my hair (it's long just now). I keep asking what being a woman is, but even those who claim that it's possible to 'become' one can't tell me, so I'm left with those external markers, as I already have the hormones and body of a woman. To me, someone saying that they are non-binary is suggesting that other people are (by definition) binary, and that conjures up pictures of women in circular skirts and red lipstick, beaming as they stir cake mix before cleaning the sink and polishing the children before their husband gets home from his manly job.

I don't know many people as binary as that, so I don't see the need for anyone to make a fuss about having a NB 'gender' - most of us do, whether our sex is male or female.

So how do we teach MFL ? Does elle mean “she “ with appropriate verb ending ?Can we make an adjective agree ? Elle est petite etc ?
? Thank goodness I don’t have to deal with that !

It's iel in French

A lot of languages have gender neutral options...

Some have no gendered language at all. No he or she or his or her... completely gender neutral

Nanatoone

I know teachers have a problem with this, my daughter teaches 150 secondary children a day, why on Earth should she be expected to remember these idiosyncrasies? It seems a way of drawing attention to one self it seems to me. Being different seems to be an aim now. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I do respect people’s rights to change their gender, it doesn’t bother me at all. I do think a lot of things have gone too far with no sign of stopping.

We teachers are expected to know far more than this. Once we've been told, we add a note our seating plan (or register) to remind us. It's part of our job 360 different students every 2 weeks.

Far easier to remember a non-standard pronoun than to upset a 15 year old and all the drama they can create. I've had students have meltdowns because someone looked in their direction or 'breathed wrong'.

A trans writer (no longer with us) I used to like used ze as their pronoun.

There wasa thread on mumsnet a few days ago.

A young man (lets call him Bob) was speaking with a new colleague "Chris" who has the appearance of being male. A manager asks him to come over and Bob says "Ill be with you when Ive finished with him" (meaning Chris), Another employee reports Bob for misgendering Chris, who (unbeknown to Bob) identifies as female. Bob gets called up before the CEO and given a written warning. Chris has not complained.

As the manager I would have taken Bob quietly on one side and explained that Chris identifies as female.

I would give the snitch a real dressing down for being a trouble maker and a tattle tale.

AGAA4

I don't want to join in with this wokery unless someone specifically asks me to call them 'they'or similar I will just say as I see.

A most sensible approach in my opinion. I would do exactly the same AGAA4.

biglouis

There wasa thread on mumsnet a few days ago.

A young man (lets call him Bob) was speaking with a new colleague "Chris" who has the appearance of being male. A manager asks him to come over and Bob says "Ill be with you when Ive finished with him" (meaning Chris), Another employee reports Bob for misgendering Chris, who (unbeknown to Bob) identifies as female. Bob gets called up before the CEO and given a written warning. Chris has not complained.

As the manager I would have taken Bob quietly on one side and explained that Chris identifies as female.

I would give the snitch a real dressing down for being a trouble maker and a tattle tale.

So an example of bad managing, the reason was largely irrelevant. If Bob had mis identified Chris's position in the company would he have received the same treatment? Possibly not so one CEO overreacting really. It happens. Not all mangers are good managers.

Baggs

The demand for neopronouns is control freakery – control the language people use and you're on the way to controlling their thoughts. It's orwellian claptrap.

I agree

Doodledog

I can't understand how someone NB feels, Doodle, as I don't feel that people fit into stereotypes. I am a woman, but I sometimes wear trousers, and sometimes drink pints or cut my hair (it's long just now). I keep asking what being a woman is, but even those who claim that it's possible to 'become' one can't tell me, so I'm left with those external markers, as I already have the hormones and body of a woman. To me, someone saying that they are non-binary is suggesting that other people are (by definition) binary, and that conjures up pictures of women in circular skirts and red lipstick, beaming as they stir cake mix before cleaning the sink and polishing the children before their husband gets home from his manly job.

I don't know many people as binary as that, so I don't see the need for anyone to make a fuss about having a NB 'gender' - most of us do, whether our sex is male or female.

So what you are actually doing is saying you have to know what gender a person is and they have to identify with one gender. Isn't that just as restricting to someone as the lipstick etc you think of as restrictive for women?
Non-binary people are restricted as they have to decide much of the time which facilities to use and they are not permitted to use non-binary on their passports.
We naturally (whatever we wear) make choices which are dependant on binary identities every day, if someone doesn't want to have to make those choices I think it's their right to do so.

HowVeryDareYou

Baggs

The demand for neopronouns is control freakery – control the language people use and you're on the way to controlling their thoughts. It's orwellian claptrap.

I agree

No one's demanding anyone use neopronouns. They are for the most part restricted to interactions on internet and gaming sites Occasionally someone might try to have one used in real life- like"ze". I see no difference between that and the attempts in the '70s of the women's movement to re-identify and change the word "woman" There were lots of alternatives bandied around but we seem to have finished up with the original .
Ms was slightly more successful.

VioletSky

It's iel in French

A lot of languages have gender neutral options...

Some have no gendered language at all. No he or she or his or her... completely gender neutral

And a lot still have genders (grammatically speaking) i was Merely pointing out how hard it must be to teach it

Why would it be? We have gender neutral pronouns so it's just learning those in a different language or learning less pronouns in languages that are gender neutral only