Drag Queens

I think everyone thinks they are taking a middle line, though . It's a bit like thinking alcoholics are people who drink more than ourselves, or extremists as people who feel more strongly than we do. I am, of course, perfectly reasonable, and represent the 'common sense' point of view, whilst those who don't share m concerns are lackadaisical, and those who feel more strongly than me are tub-thumping bores .

I brought up blackface, Beetlejuice. I definitely think it is significant that this was ignored by supporters of drag, as I see both as satirising people just for being themselves (as opposed to for being deserving of satire). Exposing children to exaggerated and sexualised representations of women (with the implication that this is 'normal') is no different from showing people of colour in generalised and dehumanised ways, and is equally dangerous.

As for the idea that opposing drag equates to a desire to reintroduce Section 28 - words fail me. Why does any discussion of so-called 'gender' have to bring in homophobia? Sexuality and gender are not the same thing.

If a transwoman wanted to read to children in the same way as any parent/author/professional storyteller I would have no problem with it. A drag queen doing it is not the same - in fact drag queens parody transwomen.

I totally agree about ‘blackface’ Doodledog - ‘woman face’

But I don't see the women in the photos as "Exposing children to exaggerated and sexualised representations of women" but "dressing up" and would be sad if girls felt they couldn't "Dress up" as boys or vice versa.

I wouldn't put a Ru Paul there! Looking across cultures there is an incredible amount of ritualised dressing up. There is a stage culture in our own culture of women dressing as men, suit, top hat, moustache et al. Are we to take away all imagination, fun and possibilities away? To me its a dangerous kind of "Banning".

In theatre in our won culture there is a long tradition - before women were allowed on the stage - of men taking womens parts. Trying to dress not as pantomime dames but as women for Shakespeares plays. Was this horribly dangerous?

The necessary point is that its not presented or intended as propaganda but as breadth of imagination and overseen as such.

Why don’t they just have people reading to the children who are average sort of people? Are they trying to make some sort of point and using children to do it? I have an uneasy feeling that this is exploitative and political and as such I would oppose it. In fact I would not have encouraged any of my children to go to this. They are supposed to be .site I got to stories, not looking at someone who is trying to get attention.

.site= listening

I wouldn't put a Ru Paul there!

What's the difference between Ru Paul and a drag artist who you think would be suitable to read to children? And on what basis are you making that difference?

This is not about banning - it is about thinking about what (and why) something is appropriate to present to children. Mrs Doubtfire, or Twelfth Night are very different from The Rocky Horror Picture Show or Priscilla Queen of the Desert (both of which I have seen live and thoroughly enjoyed, incidentally).

As I said earlier, a transwoman reading The Gruffalo is different from a drag queen reading about 'hips going sway sway sway', isn't it?

Willow there’s a vast difference between girls dressed as men or vice versa in say a Shakespearian play or even the original type of dame in a panto these drag artists have huge eyelashes huge lips huge falling out bosoms and bums usually very sexualised clothing and demolish any type of genuine acting They are taking the p out of womanhood and they are taking the p out of genuine trans women

Who is the head master or mistress in these schools because basically I wouldn’t want them near my children

Wyllow3

But I don't see the women in the photos as "Exposing children to exaggerated and sexualised representations of women" but "dressing up" and would be sad if girls felt they couldn't "Dress up" as boys or vice versa.

I wouldn't put a Ru Paul there! Looking across cultures there is an incredible amount of ritualised dressing up. There is a stage culture in our own culture of women dressing as men, suit, top hat, moustache et al. Are we to take away all imagination, fun and possibilities away? To me its a dangerous kind of "Banning".

Why would you think girls wouldn't have the imagination, or boys for that matter to dress up in dresses, or whatever they choose to play out there childish dreams, we don't need the trans lobby to give them permission to do so. It's was always the best playtime with my kids and theirs. Again a minority claiming something as their own, when it most decidedly is not.

Yes, Freya, and my concern is that this is going further down the road of 'if you don't conform to rigid views of so-called 'gender' then you must be trans, and anyone who is concerned about this must be a reactionary homophobic (?) bigot.

How long will it be before paedophiles are reading stories to children. How well are these drag queens vetted to be near children?

I am neither transphobic nor homophobic. everything has its place.

Leave our kids alone, childhood is short enough as it is.

Thank you Sparklefizz for bringing up this topic for discussion. I’m glad my DGSs go/went to a Christian School so that they aren’t introduced too early to topics and people they can’t properly understand.

Drag Queens have a place in society but not with young children. Yes I hope they have had a DBS check.

I wonder when VS returns from work. Watch out for some fireworks 💥

CraftyGranny

How long will it be before paedophiles are reading stories to children. How well are these drag queens vetted to be near children?

This is exactly where thinking starts running into fear and banning "everything" thats not "normal".

All people who work with children have to be vetted. Are we forgetting this? the safeguarding act of 2006 insists.

www.xperthr.co.uk/legal-timetable/centralised-vetting-system-for-people-working-with-children/81839/

No one is suggesting they will harm the children physically Wyllow but mentally it’s ridiculous to muddle children’s minds up with overtly sexual beings of any persuasion, not only damaging but unnecessary.
I said the same thing about the mothers that took they babies to day time hen and stag dos, it’s both unnecessary and totally inappropriate and yes I think if I remember rightly I got shot down in flames from VS who said didn’t I ever take my children to a circus ( not panto that time)
If you don’t understand or agree with this then we ll have to stay at opposite ends of the spectrum

I have met drag queens, they are funny, can be crude and the one I met at my work in the pub many years ago was stunning, he went on to perform in a pub setting to a audience at the time of mainly women.
In the setting I have described above I am fine with it but reading to small children is not on and is unnecessary. The hips example up post is horrible. Horses for courses, in the entertainment business fine, reading to young children no. I would not have let my young child go as in my opinion it is not age appropriate.

Well, when I opened this thread this morning I certainly wasn't expecting to see what it's about and was rather taken aback TBH, but with so much becoming 'acceptable' atm I suppose I shouldn't have been.

Thanks to all who've posted informative links especially
Chad Green's point of view which is both measured and invaluable as it comes from a lived experience that I think not many, if any of us have shared.

What's the point? What's to be gained by children being read stories by a drag queen? I'd be interested to see answers to those questions and if anyone can enlighten me to the rightness of children singing along to 'If you're a drag queen and you know it .........'. I think I've got that right but it was a few pages ago. Apologies if I've misremembered.

You're right of course Wyllow that everyone working with children has to be vetted and what seems to be needed now is also vetting what that work entails.

I shared and voiced my own concerns about mothers taking babies to hen and stag does BlueBelle and wonder when or if the current mentality of 'I can do a thing so will do it, even if I shouldn't' will ever end.

I thought your reference to blackface was spot on Doodledog. It was stopped because is was a parody of those being represented and rightly so. I'm not suggesting that panto dames and drag queens should be banned. One of the best night's out I ever had was at a drag club in Leeds, and where would the traditional pantomime be without the outlandish and central dame?

But drag queens story telling to children!!! No.
Accusations of 'demonising' lend nothing to the discussion

oops posted too soon

and are argumentative and have the potential to derail the discussion or even close it down, which is probably whey they're made.

No one's demonising drag queens here, simply questioning the appropriateness of them participating in story time.

It’s normalising the not normal. (Note I did not say abnormal. It isn’t normal for either men or women to dress up in flamboyant costumes, to read to children. It isn’t normal for drag queens to be in costume outside performance times. It isn’t normal for men to feel they have to dress up as a parody of women in order to read to children.
This will be supported by those who talk about claiming to be a cat being allowed because it’s your authentic self. I’m sure I read not too long ago about a poster being concerned about who was teaching her children. If TAs are endorsing this behaviour and thus implying they would be happy to see it in their school, I’m very concerned.

The other question that drag queens reading stories to young children is what message does that send to little children? Quite apart from the overly sexualised nursery rhymes, actions and innuendo, do those impressionable little boys sit, watch and listen and learn that it's perfectly fine to laugh at, mimic and parody women? To jeer at their large breasts, their wide hips, big hair and over the top make up? And what about the little girls? Aren't they growing up acknowledging, from a very early age, that women can be laughed at and made fun of and thats perfectlyfine? In other words, do drag queens send out the message that women are ridiculous figures of fun; not people to be respected?
I personally would have no problem with a trans woman reading to children, whether in a classroom or library setting. My problem is with drag queens and their inappropriate reading matter that I referred to earlier.

LRavenscroft @ 08.46, I completely agree with your post, you've raised some important questions there.

Where I would have drawn the line was on the content of the story and on the attire the 'reader' was wearing.

I think that these are key issues. How it's done, where it's done and what content is used are vitally important.

"Where I would have drawn the line was on the content of the story and on the attire the 'reader' was wearing.

I think that these are key issues. How it's done, where it's done and what content is used are vitally important."

Yes, absolutely.

As in moderation in all things, and that includes those who demonstrate outside libraries, far more likely to frighten the kids than a very "dressed up" woman or man dressed in clothes of that of the other sex.

Quite agree with you regarding the demonstrators Wyllow3, violence and anger has no place where children are. However, I have some empathy with the parents of the children here. In one such demonstration, parents were, quite rightly in my opinion, outraged when a man dressed in a monkey outfit, complete with exposed buttocks and a 12" dildo, arrived at Goodmayes Library in Redbridge, East London, to read to children in a story hour. Now who, in the name of God ever thought that that was appropriate? If your child had been exposed to that, wouldn't you be angry and want to know who was responsible for it?

PLEASE tell me that this isn't true Beetlejuice, it's gross.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202306/medium-164141-screenshot-2023-06-26-at-13-02-32.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202306/medium-11603-screenshot-2023-06-26-at-13-02-57.png

Agreed on all counts, BeetleJuice. I was about to say the same thing, and ask whether these people are really 'dressed up women' or parodies of femininity?