Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

"They have a defined medical condition, not an 'inner voice' seeking an identity" exactly Dickens and IMO introducing them into this discussion is an attempt to muddy the waters.

I am a Woman. Not a cis, not a terf, not a chest feeder, not a menstruator, not an owner of a spare hole. I am and identify as a Woman and it is a hate crime to deny me my chosen identification

That's true, Dickens. I don't know, but CS may well be fed up with being made into the poster girl for sex/gender issues in athletics. It's often the case that zealots co-opt the unwilling to their cause, and this may be such a case.

Doodledog

That's true, Dickens. I don't know, but CS may well be fed up with being made into the poster girl for sex/gender issues in athletics. It's often the case that zealots co-opt the unwilling to their cause, and this may be such a case.

Many people who have something in their background that they want to put behind them feel the same and are not at all great full for the constant re-exhumation of past events.

Dickens

Mollygo

Actually, I’m wondering what CS has to do with the cheating lying men who enter women’s competitions.
Is Glorianny using CS to validate the cheating of Liar Thomas or Emily Bridges? Is she using CS to validate the actions of all those TW who lie and cheat, whilst telling us that CS is a woman?
Is that representative of intersectional feminism?

I'm not sure the emphasis should be on CS or anyone with a DSD.

Are these the ones who are attacking feminist meetings; demonstrating in the street with offensive placards aimed at 'TERFS'? I don't believe so.

They have a defined medical condition, not an 'inner voice' seeking an identity.

The reason CS features in this discussion is because she visibly illustrates the lack of any real feminist philosophy in the minds of many on these threads. The people who happily designate her a man although she has always lived as a woman and wants to stay a woman.
The same prejudice identifies anyone asking for their needs to be accommodated by terms being adapted to meet their needs as misogynistic, in spite of the fact that the people asking for these adaptations are people they designate women, but women who have chosen to identify as transmen.
So we have a woman who wants to stay a woman and women who want to be designated as men whose views are ignored.
Then we have transwomen who want to be women, but are not permitted to be, and are apparently easily identified.
And non-binary people who are largely ignored.

So what you see is an amazing amount of discrimination.
The basis for this discrimination seems to be that there are some people who use trans identifying as a means to commit crimes and there are some active trans people who demonstrate about discrimination in an aggressive way.

Like all discrimination the blaming of a whole community for the actions of a few people can never be justified. Nor can the "Oh I didn't mean everyone" be used as a get out clause. If you say that trans issues are what drives that violence and link trans people to it, you necessarily provide ammunition to others who will take things further. All discrimination begins by blaming a few but ends by punishing many.

No need to quote the whole of her oft reused mantra, but . . .
So Glorianny, no real excuse for your using someone who you say is a woman, to excuse the actions of those TW who try to cheat and lie their way into female competitions, jobs, safe spaces?
If someone walked into your house, , appropriated your belongings, lifestyle etc. claimed they had the right to do so, and offered violence if you refused to let that happen, you’d welcome them on and let that happen?
Because that’s what you’re expecting females to do in the face of what some TIM, TRA and sadly, their female supporters are doing?

(That’s an analogy, just in case you don’t recognise it.😁)

I don't think one person has said Caster Semenya can't 'live' as a woman, think of themself as a woman, whatever. What is said is that Caster Semenya has had the beneficial effects of a testosterone fuelled puberty and therefore has male advantage. That is enough to say Caster should not compete against females in sport. disappointing for Caster, but fair to the other competitors, or is it only Caster's feelings that reign supreme?

How are you defining women and men Glorianny? It gets so confusing because you seem to use these words for sex and gender, and yet you must know you can't change sex? Anybody can think of themselves however they wish, present however they wish but single sex spaces (of which there are very few) should be respected and not abused in the name of self-indulgence. You've still never said which definition you are applying in your criteria set as always by men, would that be because an honest answer might derail some of your other arguments?

The sexism in live as a woman is just off the scale. It's like something from Victorian times.
It is not in our power to say men can be women, as I have said a thousand times if I say the magic words Eddie Izzard is a woman it will have not the slightest impact on his sex.

Mollygo

No need to quote the whole of her oft reused mantra, but . . .
So Glorianny, no real excuse for your using someone who you say is a woman, to excuse the actions of those TW who try to cheat and lie their way into female competitions, jobs, safe spaces?
If someone walked into your house, , appropriated your belongings, lifestyle etc. claimed they had the right to do so, and offered violence if you refused to let that happen, you’d welcome them on and let that happen?
Because that’s what you’re expecting females to do in the face of what some TIM, TRA and sadly, their female supporters are doing?

(That’s an analogy, just in case you don’t recognise it.😁)

It isn't an analogy Mollygo. It's a simply impossible situation being used in an attempt to justify discrimination.

I don't expect you to give up anything.
I don't think there is any basis for equality in women's sport and there is a great deal of evidence for that.
I don't see how someone who identifies as a woman can in anyway be anything but a woman, so in employment they may raise the status of women, and certainly can't be regarded as a threat.
Safe spaces as I have said many times are protected by law.

Your theories simply show you would discriminate. I wouldn't.
It is against the law for anyone to enter my house without my permission. Should they take my belongings and offer threats to my person no matter what their gender they would be subject to the law.
If anyone breaks the law then it should be dealt with by the law. That includes everyone, no matter what their gender.

But your view on these matters is not balanced or evidence based. It relies on identifying occasional instances of law breaking and then blaming the whole trans community for that crime. It's basically the same process discrimination has always used.

If safe spaces are protected by law then surely that's a form of discrimination, we dont exclude tall women or women with brown hair from female spaces. We exclude transwomen because of their sex.

The sad thing about populism is the only emotion it leaves you feeling is anger. Populist governments rely on that and GN seems full if it.

Yes women are often told off for being angry, it's a well worn trope.

I asked Glorianny
If someone walked into your house, , appropriated your belongings, lifestyle etc. claimed they had the right to do so, and offered violence if you refused to let that happen, you’d welcome them on and let that happen?

Glorianny says . . .
It isn't an analogy Mollygo.

It is an analogy, because it’s just what some TW are doing- ^walking (lying their way) into female sports, safe spaces etc, appropriating them for themselves, claiming the have the right to do so and offering violence if we refuse to let that happen.

Glorianny says. . .
It's a simply impossible situation being used in an attempt to justify discrimination.

In fact,
The actions of TRA and some TIM and the support of those actions by some IF, make it an impossible situation which they use in an attempt to justify discrimination against women (AHF).

Meaning of an analogy
a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
"an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"
a correspondence or partial similarity.
"the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.
"works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

No one is entitled to walk into my house and take my things. So we have an impossible situation compared with an imagined wrong.
It's really not an analogy.

The only discrimination I see is from those who designate some women acceptable and some unacceptable. Quite how this works I don't understand.
The concept seems to be
Transmen are women who look like men, but are women to be ignored.
Transwomen look like women but are men and so have to be ignored.
Intersex women are men, although if they are on medication they can compete in women's sports.
It's all far too complicated

Just try accepting people Mollygo it is so much easier, so much more inclusive and so much more logical.

Again we hold no power, saying the magic words will have zero impact on peoples sex.
Be kind and inclusive just means do as I say these days.

Glorianny I don't think there is any basis for equality in women's sport and there is a great deal of evidence for that. I don't understand what you're saying. If it's women's sports shouldn't be restricted to biological women, then any males whether or not they identify as women would be allowed and no female will stand a chance of winning. Biological females bottom of the list once again.

Sadly Glorianny, with squatters, the situation I described is not imaginary, except for the fact that it may not have happened to you.
Moving into someone’s house, using their facilities/ identities e.g. bank cards, passports, is very real for some people and mirrors what some TW are doing in sport, safe spaces etc.
Your unwillingness to see that, is further demonstration of your support for all the harm some TW are doing, not only to women but to the image of TW as a whole.

Rosie51

Glorianny I don't think there is any basis for equality in women's sport and there is a great deal of evidence for that. I don't understand what you're saying. If it's women's sports shouldn't be restricted to biological women, then any males whether or not they identify as women would be allowed and no female will stand a chance of winning. Biological females bottom of the list once again.

I think if you choose to ignore the ignominities CS had to go through, and which many other black athletes have undergone that is up to you. But there is no doubt that many see what is happening as racist and discriminatory. Claiming it isn't or you don't see it really doesn't make things equal.
You can read more about it here www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/simone-biles-shacarri-richardson-and-how-the-olympics-failed-black-women
And more from the ACLU www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

Mollygo

Sadly Glorianny, with squatters, the situation I described is not imaginary, except for the fact that it may not have happened to you.
Moving into someone’s house, using their facilities/ identities e.g. bank cards, passports, is very real for some people and mirrors what some TW are doing in sport, safe spaces etc.
Your unwillingness to see that, is further demonstration of your support for all the harm some TW are doing, not only to women but to the image of TW as a whole.

Squatting is illegal Mollygohttps://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/problems-where-you-live/squatting/#:~:text=Squatting%20is%20where%20you%20enter,to%20prison%2C%20fined%20or%20both.
So is using someone's bank card, passport or other ID
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/40/crossheading/false-identity-documents-etc
These are offenses under the law.
Transpeople are not guilty of crimes.

Argue as you want Glorianny. Your condoning if the ill-intentioned actions of some TW against women is here for all to see.

Mollygo

Argue as you want Glorianny. Your condoning if the ill-intentioned actions of some TW against women is here for all to see.

I haven't condoned anything Mollygo I have asked for evidence of what you claim. It mostly seems to be based on your own prejudices- Transwomen are not women. And your belief that because they believe they are women and you do not they are liars.
I don't believe in a Christian God, but when people say there is one I don't brand them liars.
There may be ill intentioned transwomen, unfortunately there are also ill intentioned natal women. No problems are solved through hatred.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny I don't think there is any basis for equality in women's sport and there is a great deal of evidence for that. I don't understand what you're saying. If it's women's sports shouldn't be restricted to biological women, then any males whether or not they identify as women would be allowed and no female will stand a chance of winning. Biological females bottom of the list once again.

I think if you choose to ignore the ignominities CS had to go through, and which many other black athletes have undergone that is up to you. But there is no doubt that many see what is happening as racist and discriminatory. Claiming it isn't or you don't see it really doesn't make things equal.
You can read more about it here www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/simone-biles-shacarri-richardson-and-how-the-olympics-failed-black-women
And more from the ACLU www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

One day you might actually address the points made, and not resort to insinuation and insult.

Simone Biles is a biological woman, Caster Semenya is not. I do not want Caster Semenya banned from female races because of black skin, but because Caster has enjoyed a male puberty. ACLU can spout as much as it wants, but male puberty develops longer, denser bones, a larger heart, increased lung capacity, and more twitch muscles. These advantages are not eliminated by magic words. I don't want anybody to suffer ignominies and now with DNA testing available from a simple cheek swab nobody needs to. Historical acts should not be a reason to let males compete in the female class.

The ACLU link states that trans athletes are "banned" from participating in sports in USA. That's not the case at all, they are quite welcome to participate in the correct sex class events. Of course non of the transwomen are good enough to challenge for medals, scholarships etc in the male sex class. As for non-binary individuals, do they want non-binary races, as they don't identify with either male or female, although every last one of them is one or the other. Interestingly there was a road race recently that awarded prizes to the fastest men, fastest women and fastest non-binary. All 3 non-binary prizes went to males, what a huge surprise! I'm still waiting for a male athlete to be beaten out of a medal place by a transman. It hasn't happened yet and you have to wonder why, if there really is no male body advantage.

I don't believe in a Christian God, but when people say there is one I don't brand them liars. so you say 'yes I agree" on pain of being called a bigot if you don't? When was the last time anyone tried to force you to believe in their Christian God, and act in accordance with their beliefs?

If you choose not to care about the heartbreak of female athletes who have trained hard for years and years, only to be beaten to a place or medal by a newly transgendered male, then that's up to you. Of course in the USA college scholarships are often awarded on the basis of sporting success. If you are happy with females being unfairly disadvantaged in their education prospects by a male then you have different ideas of fairness to me.

Sex segregated spaces are not hatred. Again my beliefs arent really relevent, they have no impact on a mans sex.

I think if you choose to ignore the ignominities CS had to go through, and which many other black athletes have undergone that is up to you. But there is no doubt that many see what is happening as racist and discriminatory. Claiming it isn't or you don't see it really doesn't make things equal.

Are you suggesting that if CS had been white there wouldn't have been ignominies? Do you have evidence for that claim? Have white athletes with DSDs been treated differently? If there is evidence then there is a case to be made against those who carried out ignominious testing on black athletes and non-invasive ones on white ones, and I would absolutely support that (without supporting male-bodied athletes being able to compete against female ones). Without it though, it sounds like clutching at straws, and a way of firing insults (eg 'worthy of the KKK') to anyone who questions male-bodied athletes in female sport.

Galaxy

Sex segregated spaces are not hatred. Again my beliefs arent really relevent, they have no impact on a mans sex.

Agreed. I'm not sure what definition of 'hatred' is being used here, but the OED defines it as : A feeling of intense dislike or aversion towards a person or thing; an emotion in which such a feeling is experienced; loathing; hostility; malevolence. Also: an instance of this. Frequently with of, for, between, against.

How this applies to wanting single sex spaces, and how this is 'peddled' by those wanting to stop the language changing so that we know whether we are talking about males or females I don't know, particularly as we all keep saying that we have nothing against transpeople per se, just against the way the trans lobby want to eradicate women.