Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Glorianny

So I'm wrong because I post links to judgements by various bodies, which you all seem prepared to ignore in favour of your own prejudices.
You call transwomen men
You call an intersex woman a man.
Honestly it is pure prejudice.
There is more information about the subject here theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448
But I don't expect you to read it. Your minds are closed.

Well I've just read it. Did you read it all the way through? It lists 10 points to refute the decision.

Point 1 immediately says the ruling confuses sex with gender.
Sex determination was abandoned in the 1990s in favour of gender. From the 2000 Sydney Olympics forwards, there were no tests of gender other than self-identification. So athletes compete with their gender not their sexed bodies do they?

Point 2 conflates testosterone levels in XY people (males) with those in XX (females) with a rare condition congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

Point 3 draws on the difference testosterone makes between males and females in all events is estimated to be up to 12% (all other items being equal). But Semenya’s best time is only 2% faster than her competitors. this is easily explained by Semenya not being an elite athlete when compared with the correct sex class. Mediocre men can still beat elite women, in fact boys' sporting records often exceed elite women's around the age of 15 years.

Point 4 is beyond parody. The self-professed values of sport include the development of one’s own talent . but don't worry about women cheated out of their achievements eh?

Point 5 is a repeat of point 2

Point 6 argues If the rules are to be changed, they should not affect athletes who agreed to the current rules, but future athletes.There should be a “grandmother clause” for current athletes, like Semenya or else they are unfairly burdened by the bungles of the IAAF. Even if these rules could be considered justified, they should apply to future athletes as soon as possible after puberty. and justice is about giving priority to the worst off in our society so female athletes should just accept being cheated out of their just rewards and that's justice?

Point 7 states The concern is that if “XY females” are allowed to compete in the female category, formerly male transgender females will follow and rob cisgender women of their medals. the author states transgender athletes can be dealt with by different rules, acknowledging they have had a male puberty.

Point 8 argues that testosterone reduction These interventions interfere with a normally functioning organism for highly uncertain benefits to other people. This is disproportionate and unreasonable. so fairness to women athletes is disproportionate?

Point 9 states with regard to testosterone reducing medication Their use would be “off label” and is for purposes other than the athlete’s health. if these medications adversely affect male athlete's health that raises questions about their use in other situations ?

Point 10 is , well what can I say. I have argued athletes should be able take performance-enhancing substances within the normal physiological range. This would mean cisgender female athletes could take testosterone up to 5 nMol/L. This would reduce any advantage Semenya may have. So males suppressing testosterone bad for their health, but females supplementing with testosterone suddenly OK. Except Semenya won't lower testosterone levels to <5nMol/L.

Are you going to answer my question in my earlier post criteria set as always by men when you use men here do you mean biological males or some other category, it gets so confusing when these words have no definitive meaning? Maybe you're confused by your own usage?

Unbelievable isn't it Doodledog to see such treatment being metered out. Hardly befitting a sisterhood is it.

Smileless2012

Unbelievable isn't it Doodledog to see such treatment being metered out. Hardly befitting a sisterhood is it.

Well who is left in your sisterhood anyway? It isn't an inclusive sisterhood. It's one where you decide who is admitted. Your sisterhood bears no resemblance to mine, where you would be welcome by the way. You'd just have to stop calling people men and accept transwomen and intersex women are your sisters. (Not that you'd know if there was one standing next to you anyway)

And I am still wondering who you ( Glorianny ) were referring to with your accusation of 'peddling hatred' upthread. I realise that you downgraded the insult to 'peddling fear', but that doesn't answer the question about the insult's intended accused.

Can't you see the irony when you complain about 'the wrong sort of woman' yet say things like the above to people on here?

I'd be ashamed to type the words, such is the hypocrisy.

Say the words I want you to say now

I just knew Glorianny would ignore my post. Says things like "you won't read it, your minds are closed" then when I've read it and made my comments, is so biased as not to even acknowledge that I did read it. And can't or won't elaborate on who are the men in criteria set as always by men I need to know the definition of these men in order to comment. Are they transmen? Or are they biological men? A mix of the two?

Now we are faced with this sort of thing.
In August, a trans-identified male in the United Kingdom prompted backlash after he complained about his lack of access to the women’s changing rooms at a Sheffield hotel. Anne Coombes, 65, first made headlines after he slammed a worker at the Mercure Hotel for giving him a changing room pass for the unisex facilities instead of the women-only area.

The unisex area would seem to be a reasonable compromise - he is not a female, but he wasn’t obliged to use a men’s changing area.

shortly after, information began to circulate demonstrating that Coombes had an apparent “breastfeeding” fetish, and had interacted with accounts eroticizing motherhood and lactation.

Then there’s the TW who was offended because the staff in Victoria’s Secret made him wait until the women in the changing rooms had finished using it, and then let him use it uninterrupted whilst he tried on bras. He was offended by both actions-totally disinterested in how women felt about having a man in the changing rooms. On social media, he evidently said he doesn’t like VS bras as they don’t fit him-so why go there at all?
These males aren’t interested in fairness to women, or provision of unisex areas which acknowledge that they are transwomen and don’t oblige them to use male facilities.

Rosie51

I just knew Glorianny would ignore my post. Says things like "you won't read it, your minds are closed" then when I've read it and made my comments, is so biased as not to even acknowledge that I did read it. And can't or won't elaborate on who are the men in criteria set as always by men I need to know the definition of these men in order to comment. Are they transmen? Or are they biological men? A mix of the two?

Rosie51 what is the point when you either misunderstand something deliberately or are unable to open your mind to any opinions.
But just of interest
Point 8 follows from the lack of research into the benefits of natural testosterone for intersex women. There is little evidence that this gives any advantage. If the testosterone receptors in the individual's body fail to respond it is quite reasonable to assume that the assumed benefit may not be applicable. Nothing to do with dismissing women but to do with not using evidence based science.

Points 9 &10 deal with the issue of choice. Intersex women are compelled to take the medication and not for health reasons, but the writer considers if there is an advantage ciswomen should be permitted to use medication to raise their testosterone if they so wish. No one is forcing women to take anything.

Point 2 does not conflate anything. It simply points out that XX women are treated differently to XY women

Point3. Is once again to do with the lack of real evidence. A 2% difference is much below the 12% meaning that the influence of the testosterone may in fact not be proven.

Just reading with an open mind and not seeking offenses to women would help you. Try thinking Caster Semenya has been shown to have a vagina, she was born with one, she meets some of the requirements you have said women should have.

Taking any sort of performance changing drugs is not allowed in sport. Oh, except for . . .

With regard to point 8 Caster Semenya is reactive to testosterone, and their body has developed accordingly.

Do you not understand the 12% difference is between elite male athletes and elite female athletes? A mediocre male athlete may well only be 2% better than an elite female athlete.

Perhaps you could open your mind enough to understand the heartbreak of women who train for years only to lose medals and placings to transwomen who decide after male puberty advantage that they aren't just mediocre male athletes but rather better "women" athletes. I know Caster does not identify as transgender, but you have no problem with transwomen taking women's prizes.

You have forgotten to tell me how you're classifying the men in your assertion criteria set as always by men . You must surely know how you're defining them....male, tranman..? Is your lack of answer because it would be too embarrassing to give an honest one?

Just reading with an open mind and not seeking offenses to women would help you. Try thinking Caster Semenya has been shown to have a vagina, she was born with one, she meets some of the requirements you have said women should have.

Please show where I have said that having a vagina is a requirement of being a woman? The only requirement, just the one, is to be born a female baby and live into adulthood when you are a woman. It really isn't rocket science, just basic biology. You are aware that the sex of a baby can be determined while in utero, with absolute certainty? Incidentally had Semenya been DNA tested at birth, as can happen world wide to babies born with ambiguous genitalia, the XY chromosomes would have confirmed a male baby.

All women are in my sisterhood Glorianny and my belief that all should be treated equally regardless of their gender, race and colour.

I have asked repeatedly on these threads what rights the transgender community are denied and it's never answered, because they're not being denied any. Unless of course someone's prepared to say that those few who do so, are wanting to take away the long and hard fought for rights of women.

I accept any member of the trans community as my equal, but I will never accept the lie that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man.

And no, I don't believe for one moment that I would be welcomed unless of course I was prepared to perpetuate a lie, and that is not something I will ever do.

With regard to point 8 Caster Semenya is reactive to testosterone, and their body has developed accordingly
Another misconception.
^They may affect how sex-related hormones function in the body, such as when an individual with XY chromosomes
cannot absorb or utilize testosterone. Intersex conditions may also affect internal or external sex characteristics, such as
cases when an individual’s genitalia at birth defies easy classification as male or female^
More here from the Women's Sports foundation www.womenssportsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/participation-of-intersex-athletes-in-womens-sports.pdf .

Well there is one of the rights you are denying them. The right to identify as they wish
I accept any member of the trans community as my equal, but I will never accept the lie that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man.
You are entitled to believe that a transwoman is a man. You are not entitled to force your belief onto them, which you do by misgendering them.

I am not going to agree with your sexist stereotypes in the same way I wouldnt agree with racist ones. Gender is oppressive to both men and women.

Its all about control and power. Say the words just say them.

Smileless2012

All women are in my sisterhood Glorianny and my belief that all should be treated equally regardless of their gender, race and colour.

Yes.

How has perpetuating a lie suddenly become the right thing to do according to some people?
I have read posts from some people decrying the alleged lying during Covid, or by the government, or by different sides in the current war, etc.
But perpetrating and perpetuating the lie that people can change sex seems to be acceptable.

And still Glorianny is unable to tell me what she means by men in her The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men. what definition of men is she using, biological males, transmen just who? The silence is so revealing, as I expect everyone but Glorianny can see.

Glorianny you do realise that compelled speech is a breach of the rights of others?

For some reason this poem by Wendy Cope popped into my mind.

Mollygo

I'm beginning to think that trying to prevent women from declaring themselves a group - by diminishing their status with terminology like "chest feeders", "menstruators", "gestational parents", etc, and demanding entry to their hitherto single-sex spaces - is the supreme act of male oppression.

These are not the actions of transwomen just "trying to live their best lives" inclusively with the rest of society. They are not the actions of a man who has found inner peace by denying his biological sex and identifying with women... they are the actions of a male narcissistic ego when it is challenged by a woman.

However, the Daily Mail is not my usual 'go-to' for news or discussions on these matters because it, and the Express, are on a crusade against "wokeism", so they have an agenda and are clearly not unbiased.

But there is evidence elsewhere, in more sober media, of the outrageous and violent actions of men - some wearing balaclavas, attacking feminists because they are gender critical and will not accept that TWAW.

Glorianny

Well there is one of the rights you are denying them. The right to identify as they wish
I accept any member of the trans community as my equal, but I will never accept the lie that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man.
You are entitled to believe that a transwoman is a man. You are not entitled to force your belief onto them, which you do by misgendering them.

You are not entitled to force your belief onto them, which you do by misgendering them.

But Glorianny you are claiming that TW are entitled to force their belief onto women.

Why, in your opinion, do males have the right to force their beliefs on females?

Why IYO, must females endorse the lies of males?

I'm beginning to think that trying to prevent women from declaring themselves a group - by diminishing their status with terminology like "chest feeders", "menstruators", "gestational parents", etc, and demanding entry to their hitherto single-sex spaces - is the supreme act of male oppression.
Yes - the trans movement is deeply misogynist and homophobic, but uses accusations of those things against their questioners as they know that many are ‘lefty’ feminists who will be appalled at the idea that they might subconsciously hold those views. They don’t, of course, but it’s quite an effective tool, and once someone is ‘captured’ they deny their own sexism and homophobia by projecting it onto others.

Glorianny, TW can identify as they wish. They just can’t use that identification to cheat and lie and force others to accept their cheating and lying.

As I asked a while back, if someone, TW or not, broke into your house demanding to take over your hard earned home and possessions, would you object?
I don’t mind that you don’t answer. My posts/ questions are there for posters to see that you don’t/can’t answer.

I am not saying and have never said that a member of the trans community cannot identify as they wish Glorianny. As Mollygo has put it so well They just can't use that identification to cheat and lie and force others to accept their cheating and lying.

It seems to me Glorianny that for you, everyone is equal but the lying, cheating, aggressive and bullying members of the trans community, are more equal than others.

I could identify as a cat, but wouldn't and shouldn't expect everyone else to bend whatever rules are in place for male and female human beings to accommodate my feline desires.

Actually, I’m wondering what CS has to do with the cheating lying men who enter women’s competitions.
Is Glorianny using CS to validate the cheating of Liar Thomas or Emily Bridges? Is she using CS to validate the actions of all those TW who lie and cheat, whilst telling us that CS is a woman?
Is that representative of intersectional feminism?

Mollygo

Actually, I’m wondering what CS has to do with the cheating lying men who enter women’s competitions.
Is Glorianny using CS to validate the cheating of Liar Thomas or Emily Bridges? Is she using CS to validate the actions of all those TW who lie and cheat, whilst telling us that CS is a woman?
Is that representative of intersectional feminism?

I'm not sure the emphasis should be on CS or anyone with a DSD.

Are these the ones who are attacking feminist meetings; demonstrating in the street with offensive placards aimed at 'TERFS'? I don't believe so.

They have a defined medical condition, not an 'inner voice' seeking an identity.