Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Doodledog
^ the reason an adult is not allowed to compete against children, however he or she may ‘identify’, is because adults are bigger, heavier, stronger and so on, so would (a) have the advantage and almost always win, and (b) would be a potential danger to smaller weaker competitors. What’s the difference between that situation and a male-bodied person in a women’s sport?^

Similarly, in male boxing, it would be unfair to pit bantam weight boxers and heavy weight boxers against each other.
I’m not sure if Glorianny will like any of the analogies she is presented with though. She hasn’t so far.

Rosie51

Glorianny Women's sport is a mess. Targeting transwomen will not solve the problem.

It's rare that dealing with one unfair aspect of a problem completely solves the problem, but the unfairness of transwomen in women's sports is an easy quick fix and then we can concentrate on other areas. If you want women to wait until every single aspect can be solved at the same time then it will never be solved.

I know you like an analogy so if you went to the doctor with a list of health complaints would you expect the doctor not to address your obviously sprained ankle until they had answers to your persistent cough, occasional vomiting, sporadic headaches and lastly your muscle weakness?

But the whole of this is linked by the lack of proper research into the effects of natural testosterone.
And discrimination in women's sport is not a single issue.It is not caused by transwomen. It is the result of white male patriarchal systems dominating women and subjecting them to intrusive tests, removing transwomen will do nothing for all the other women involved.

To use your analogy Rosie if I went to the doctor's with a bad cough I wouldn't expect him to give me cough medicine and ignore my lung cancer.

Oh Glorianny my analogy wasn't a single issue, your cough would be as a result of your single issue lung cancer, although normally he'd have to arrange tests to conclude the lung cancer. How about if you presented with the list I suggested? You'd expect him to say, let's strap up that sprained ankle for some instant relief, and we'll run some tests to find out what's causing the rest wouldn't you? Bit callous if he said, I'm not touching that sprained ankle until we can also sort out all your other problems.

But the whole of this is linked by the lack of proper research into the effects of natural testosterone. it doesn't matter what a transwomen's testosterone level is, the male denser longer bones, larger heart and lungs, more muscle mass etc etc do not reduce. A male body does not lose the effects of a male puberty because someone says they're now a woman, not even if they have surgery, which you know most don't.
Unless you have evidence that making a declaration does indeed change all these aspects of the body to reduce male advantage?

Mollygo

Doodledog
^ the reason an adult is not allowed to compete against children, however he or she may ‘identify’, is because adults are bigger, heavier, stronger and so on, so would (a) have the advantage and almost always win, and (b) would be a potential danger to smaller weaker competitors. What’s the difference between that situation and a male-bodied person in a women’s sport?^

Similarly, in male boxing, it would be unfair to pit bantam weight boxers and heavy weight boxers against each other.
I’m not sure if Glorianny will like any of the analogies she is presented with though. She hasn’t so far.

But there is little research into the size or weight of transwomen athletes as distinct from natal women. Natal women vary hugely in physical size as well Serena Williams is 5ft 9in and weighs over 11 stone. Most of the world class women's tennis players are tall now. Sue Barker was 5ft 5 and a bit and weighed just over 8 stone. So arguably small women are losing out to taller ones.

By all means let's have an organised and easily understandable system which means similar people compete against similar people but let's not pretend that is entirely trans based.

Michael Phelps has significant genetic adaptations which have helped him achieve success in swimming. No one has ever suggested he should be medicated to alter that in order to create a level playing field. Why then is it suggested for women?

Serena Williams has said that most male tennis players could beat her. Look up the 'battle of the sexes' tennis matches. Only Billy Jean King beat Bobby Rigby who was 55 years old against King's 29.

Raised testosterone levels in females with androgen insensitivity is not penalised. Raised testosterone levels in males with a DSD that resulted in male puberty advantage, although they had wrongly thought to be female, should preclude them from competing in the female class. It is sad for the individual, but unfair to many more females.

Rosie51

Serena Williams has said that most male tennis players could beat her. Look up the 'battle of the sexes' tennis matches. Only Billy Jean King beat Bobby Rigby who was 55 years old against King's 29.

Raised testosterone levels in females with androgen insensitivity is not penalised. Raised testosterone levels in males with a DSD that resulted in male puberty advantage, although they had wrongly thought to be female, should preclude them from competing in the female class. It is sad for the individual, but unfair to many more females.

So they probably could Rosie51 what has that to do with the differences in size between women?

Equality demands that people be treated equally therefore all genetic conditions should be regarded as needing to be treated to create a level playing field, or none should.

But there is little research into the size or weight of transwomen athletes as distinct from natal women

The research should be to see if large TW should compete against small TW.

There is plenty of research that proves the unfairness of males competing against females, even though you don’t like it.

Sport is an area where, ironically, the playing field is never level. People are born with the bodies and the psyches they are given, and some are far more suitable for competitive sport than others. Some are physically capable but lack the determination and competitive spirit necessary to succeed, and others may be extremely driven but have short limbs, lungs that don't function very well, flat feet or whatever. It is because of this that some rise to the top and others don't.

For people with similar body shapes and capabilities, it comes down to relentless training schedules and sacrifices of personal time, relationships and so on. Given the sacrifices involved, and because of the fame and fortune associated with success, to make it fairer, as with school sports, people are measured against others with similar physiques. As Molly says, boxers fight people of the same size and weight, jockeys are weighed to ensure fairness, athletes and sportspeople compete in sex groups, infants and juniors have separate races, and in many schools there are girls' and boys' races after puberty, too.

Disrupting that is not 'equality'. It is blatant rigging, and anyone who cared about women would want it to stop.

Glorianny when I gave you an analogy that featured several elements, as in the problems attached to women's sports, you couldn't address that as it destroyed your argument so came back with your own single element analogy. In my opinion that's a dishonest tactic. You refuse to see the quick instant fix of one unfairness as being desirable. It does make me wonder why. If the government could fix the homelessness of 600 people today instantly, do you think they should hold off until they can fix the homelessness of absolutely everyone? I don't suppose you'll answer that either.

You bring in the physique of Serena Williams as an argument for ??? but when I say she could be beaten by most male tennis players you have to agree, but somehow still want males who say the mantra to play against females.

You raise that Phelps has huge feet which with his large wingspan gave him an advantage over his competitors. I've never once read any male swimmer complain about his advantage maybe because he's male and swimming in the male category. I never heard any female tennis players complain about the physical advantages Serena Williams has, maybe because she's female and competes in the female category.
Why do you think that men who can't compete successfully in their own sex class should be able to identify as women and compete unfairly? It's notable that Bruce Jenner a gold medal world record winning decathlete didn't transition to Caitlyn while a successful male athlete, but some years later. Caitlyn, while known as Bruce benefitted from a sports scholarship to college. There hasn't been one successful male athlete who has transitioned while still competing. Amazing!

With the restrictions you would place on sport every event should finish in an across the board tie, hardly the purpose of competition. The costs involved would be astronomical and I think you'd find the male competitors happy to compete against other males wouldn't want it either.

Doodledog

Sport is an area where, ironically, the playing field is never level. People are born with the bodies and the psyches they are given, and some are far more suitable for competitive sport than others. Some are physically capable but lack the determination and competitive spirit necessary to succeed, and others may be extremely driven but have short limbs, lungs that don't function very well, flat feet or whatever. It is because of this that some rise to the top and others don't.

For people with similar body shapes and capabilities, it comes down to relentless training schedules and sacrifices of personal time, relationships and so on. Given the sacrifices involved, and because of the fame and fortune associated with success, to make it fairer, as with school sports, people are measured against others with similar physiques. As Molly says, boxers fight people of the same size and weight, jockeys are weighed to ensure fairness, athletes and sportspeople compete in sex groups, infants and juniors have separate races, and in many schools there are girls' and boys' races after puberty, too.

Disrupting that is not 'equality'. It is blatant rigging, and anyone who cared about women would want it to stop.

But women are not competing against women of the same size as you allege in other sports (mostly male like boxing).
So there is no measuring of physiques in women's sports.
Nor is there any genetic expectations of participants in men's sport.
By all means let's have equality but let's not pretend that banning transwomen will achieve that.
Genetic abnormalities are accepted in men's sport with no requirements to medicate to the norm.
Women with genetic abnormalities must medicate themselves in order to compete
Caster Semanya could return to women's competetive sport if she would take medication as could the other black athletes.

Posting this an illustration that even when the physical attributes are similar, women cannot compete fairly with men in sport.
A world record time for Missy Franklin would TIE for 50th place in the men's competition. According to Glorianny that would be fair.

Rosie51

Posting this an illustration that even when the physical attributes are similar, women cannot compete fairly with men in sport.
A world record time for Missy Franklin would TIE for 50th place in the men's competition. According to Glorianny that would be fair.

Yes Rosie, because she has made it quite clear that her idea of fairness is only if it benefits males.

I am not 'alleging' anything. please don't try to downplay my posts by changing the status of what I am saying. I am pointing out (rather different) that sex, weight, age (where appropriate) and so on are used to differentiate between competing groups in order to make them fair.

You refused to answer the question about an adult entering a children's race, calling it 'desperate'. I disagree, but will put it another way. Why do you think that schools have separate races for older and younger children?

Mollygo

Rosie51

Posting this an illustration that even when the physical attributes are similar, women cannot compete fairly with men in sport.
A world record time for Missy Franklin would TIE for 50th place in the men's competition. According to Glorianny that would be fair.

Yes Rosie, because she has made it quite clear that her idea of fairness is only if it benefits males.

Could you try to refrain from posting what I have said and stick to your own views Rosie 51 and*Mollygo*. The fact that you can only counter my arguments by posting something I haven't said simply illustrates that you understand the real problems but don't want to admit that.

Glorianny

Mollygo

Rosie51

Posting this an illustration that even when the physical attributes are similar, women cannot compete fairly with men in sport.
A world record time for Missy Franklin would TIE for 50th place in the men's competition. According to Glorianny that would be fair.

Yes Rosie, because she has made it quite clear that her idea of fairness is only if it benefits males.

Could you try to refrain from posting what I have said and stick to your own views Rosie 51 and*Mollygo*. The fact that you can only counter my arguments by posting something I haven't said simply illustrates that you understand the real problems but don't want to admit that.

You have said that height, weight etc should be balanced. If Ryan Lochte identified as a transwoman and competed against Missy they would be matched for height wingspan. Missy wouldn't stand a chance against Ryan.

You could try addressing the points people make, rather than making up others for them. My multi-point analogy versus your single point one for a start. Still no answer as to why a doctor shouldn't strap the sprained ankle, while ordering tests for the other conditions? Or what a government should do if it can only instantly address the homelessness of 600 rather than all?
Caster Semenya has a DSD that only affects males. I agree the ruling that Caster may compete with testosterone reduction is ridiculous, as that will not undo the male puberty advantages Caster has. That's down to the cowardice of the sporting authorities who despite being "white men" don't have the courage to take the backlash of making female sport open only to biological females. The link you provided and endorsed earlier in the thread even said (point 6)

The decision is unjust in several ways.

Firstly, it was the IAAF which moved from sex to gender definition of female in 1990s. Semenya has entered competition, trained and competed fairly under the rules. To change them now will be undermine her capacity to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment.
This would seem to confirm that Semenya has a 'woman' gender but not a female sex. There doesn't appear to be any sympathy for the females who have trained hard but are unfairly unable to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment.

Glorianny, if you haven’t said it here, you will have said it somewhere, so there’s not a problem.
We understand that lying and cheating to win is a big problem, which seems to constantly escape you.
A world record time for Missy Franklin would TIE for 50th place in the men's competition
It would be more impressive if you say whether you think the point about TW loser Missy Franklin entering female competitions is fair.
Trans Women Are Transwomen. They are not female.

Males cheating to win female competitions isn’t fair.
Actually, anyone cheating to win a competition isn’t fair.
Once you support one form of lying and cheating, it would be difficult to explain that you think lying and cheating is wrong, and even more difficult for people to believe you.

I think you may have misunderstood my post Mollygo sorry if it wasn't clear. Missy is a biological female. The point is she is the same height and wingspan as Ryan, both held the world record at 200 m, but because Missy is female, her world record would only tie with the 50th placed male at that event. Even when men and women have comparable body types men will always outstrip women because of male puberty advantage. If Ryan had uttered the magic words "I feel like a woman" he could have set a record that no woman would ever be likely to match let alone beat.

I did misunderstand. Sorry. I was sitting in the docs having a quiet panic, so I didn’t research like I usually do. Your actual point is even clearer about the fairness if separate sex competitions.
Should be male, female and open. Then both sexes have a choice of their own sex or the open.

Caster Semenya has a DSD that only affects males. I agree the ruling that Caster may compete with testosterone reduction is ridiculous, as that will not undo the male puberty advantages Caster has. That's down to the cowardice of the sporting authorities who despite being "white men" don't have the courage to take the backlash of making female sport open only to biological females. The link you provided and endorsed earlier in the thread even said (point 6)

The decision is unjust in several ways.

Firstly, it was the IAAF which moved from sex to gender definition of female in 1990s. Semenya has entered competition, trained and competed fairly under the rules. To change them now will be undermine her capacity to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment.
This would seem to confirm that Semenya has a 'woman' gender but not a female sex. There doesn't appear to be any sympathy for the females who have trained hard but are unfairly unable to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment.

Semenya had been examined carefully under the previous rules and judged woman enough to compete. Under both the sex and gender regulations she has been passed to compete as a woman.
She is a woman who is unable to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment
Why? Because she kept winning.

How do the sex and gender regulations differ? As there are different regs it appears that the athletics authorities must recognise that sex and gender are different, which makes something of a nonsense of having two sets of regulations, but I'd be interested to know how it works.

There doesn't appear to be any sympathy for the females who have trained hard and are then denied medals by males masquerading as female.
Since you repeatedly use Caster Semanya being a woman as an example of unfair treatment, how do you justify TW (who are male) trying to compete in female races as fair?

www.crowdjustice.com/case/let-women-play-pool/

Here is an appeal from female pool players who are losing out to transwomen. In my ignorance I wouldn’t have thought that pool would be particularly affected by sex, but if you read the text it is clearly explained why it matters that women play other women, and the impact on female players when transwomen muscle in.

How can this be justified at all, never mind thought to be happening in the name of equality?

Yet another report this morning of 1st and 2nd place in a women’s cycle race going to trans women who went through puberty as males. They look like men, standing head and shoulders above the woman who came 3rd
I genuinely can see no way this qualifies as sporting success