Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Are Filipino hands proportionately small? I have no idea. What I do know is that women have made what is, to me, a convincing case for being allowed to continue competing against other women, but as ever, are being eradicated from their sport. Not by Filipinos, but by male-bodied people who have said the magic words.

IMO feminism is about supporting them, not coming up with reasons why they should be disbelieved, particularly as neither of us seems to be able to imagine a motive for their lying about the situation.

I ask again - why not have a transwomen team/league, so that male-bodied players who would like to be women and play against women can challenge one another? Wouldn't that be fairer?

I will also ask again - why do you think that school sports days have races separated by age groups in younger years, and by sex in older ones?

And another non-sequitur from G.
The size of her hands, the colour of their skin, their height, their testosterone levels still don’t make them female, so entering female competitions is cheating.
You support cheating?

Their hands

Doodledog

Are Filipino hands proportionately small? I have no idea. What I do know is that women have made what is, to me, a convincing case for being allowed to continue competing against other women, but as ever, are being eradicated from their sport. Not by Filipinos, but by male-bodied people who have said the magic words.

IMO feminism is about supporting them, not coming up with reasons why they should be disbelieved, particularly as neither of us seems to be able to imagine a motive for their lying about the situation.

I ask again - why not have a transwomen team/league, so that male-bodied players who would like to be women and play against women can challenge one another? Wouldn't that be fairer?

I will also ask again - why do you think that school sports days have races separated by age groups in younger years, and by sex in older ones?

Some 5ft 4in people may have hands the same size as 6ft people Doodledog, so I would imagine they are varied. The hands thing isn't really evidence anyway. There are women with big hands and men with small hands, having big ones may be an advantage, so to what extent would you take that? Ban women with big hands?
I don't know what would be fairer Doodledog Pool is not something I have played. I did know over 50 years ago a women's snooker champion, she did play men sometimes.

Yes, a female champion playing men sometimes is not the same as female aspiring champions being kept from the top by male-bodied players.

It does seem as though you are looking for ways to support the men - I know the report mentions hands, amongst other things, but you made it about that, then when I showed that your large hands are anomalous decided that hands are no longer important.

What about the age groups and sex segregation in school sports days? Do you have an answer for that, or are you choosing to ignore it?

Glorianny Michael Phelps has ankles which are unusually flexible, giving him a kick advantage. His muscles produce half the normal amount of lactic acid which is significant for oxygen in the blood. His exceptional reach which is out of proportion to his height has won him races. It is widely believed that he has Marfan Syndrome.

Most of the black athletes who have been banned because of the testosterone rules are black. Many black people and countries think this is a racial issue, because black women's bodies do not conform to white standards.
I wonder do you as presumably a white woman have the right to decide what is and isn't racism?
Try Googling "Black women athletes face discrimination". There are loads of articles.

So once again what medication would you recommend for Michael Phelps to temper his advantage? I don't remember ever hearing that his fellow males (being as he competed in his own sex category) ever complained about his advantage. Your evidence for alleging he has Marfan syndrome? Do you know anything about that syndrome and the need for medical and often surgical interventions none of which Michael Phelps has had.

Banning males with the DSD 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, (a condition that is exclusive to males) is not evidence of a racial issue. How many times can it be said that Caster Semenya and other males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency are not female and are therefore ineligible to compete in the female category. If Caster is allowed to compete with or without reduced testosterone, why shouldn't any male be able to compete? Caster would scream loudly, I assume, when they were finishing out of the medals.

When you use anyone's skin colour as a point against them you are practising racial discrimination. And I've read plenty on "Black women athletes face discrimination". Perhaps you'd care to google 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency and then come back and explain what part of that doesn't make Caster Semenya a biological male who went through a male puberty, just like all the other males.

Rosie51

Glorianny Michael Phelps has ankles which are unusually flexible, giving him a kick advantage. His muscles produce half the normal amount of lactic acid which is significant for oxygen in the blood. His exceptional reach which is out of proportion to his height has won him races. It is widely believed that he has Marfan Syndrome.

Most of the black athletes who have been banned because of the testosterone rules are black. Many black people and countries think this is a racial issue, because black women's bodies do not conform to white standards.
I wonder do you as presumably a white woman have the right to decide what is and isn't racism?
Try Googling "Black women athletes face discrimination". There are loads of articles.

So once again what medication would you recommend for Michael Phelps to temper his advantage? I don't remember ever hearing that his fellow males (being as he competed in his own sex category) ever complained about his advantage. Your evidence for alleging he has Marfan syndrome? Do you know anything about that syndrome and the need for medical and often surgical interventions none of which Michael Phelps has had.

Banning males with the DSD 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, (a condition that is exclusive to males) is not evidence of a racial issue. How many times can it be said that Caster Semenya and other males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency are not female and are therefore ineligible to compete in the female category. If Caster is allowed to compete with or without reduced testosterone, why shouldn't any male be able to compete? Caster would scream loudly, I assume, when they were finishing out of the medals.

When you use anyone's skin colour as a point against them you are practising racial discrimination. And I've read plenty on "Black women athletes face discrimination". Perhaps you'd care to google 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency and then come back and explain what part of that doesn't make Caster Semenya a biological male who went through a male puberty, just like all the other males.

Caster Semenya is a woman Rosie51 the fact that you refuse to accept her as a woman just shows prejudice and discrimination
As does your refusal to recognise the plight of black women athletes.

The point which you seem unable to grasp is that sport is not a level playing field, some genetic conditions give some people advantages over others. The inequality will not be resolved through banning transwomen.

Yes it will. It will mean that within the parameters of their sex people can train and stretch themselves and be in with a chance of winning if they are good enough.

Remove the sex qualification and you may as well let 11 year olds run against 5 year olds. I ask again whether you would be happy with that happening in a primary school.

Doodledog I’ll ask the children when I’m teaching tomorrow. I wonder what their response will be.

Glorianny Caster Semenya is a woman Rosie51 the fact that you refuse to accept her as a woman just shows prejudice and discrimination
As does your refusal to recognise the plight of black women athletes.

The point which you seem unable to grasp is that sport is not a level playing field, some genetic conditions give some people advantages over others. The inequality will not be resolved through banning transwomen.

You can call Caster a woman if you so wish but what biological sex is Caster Semenya? What makes Caster's body different to any other male who went through male puberty? Are you unable to comprehend that people compete with bodies, not feelings?

Please show me where I have refused to recognise the plight of some black women athletes. I acknowledge that some black females have been suspected of not being female because of their build. That is wrong, and hopefully doesn't happen as frequently, and shouldn't happen at all. If sex passports for all competitors were introduced via one cheek swab at the start of their career, this could be avoided totally.

Of course sport isn't a totally level playing field or else there'd be no winners or losers everybody would tie every single competition. Sport should ensure that the field is as level as it can be and allowing men, whether they are transwomen or males with a DSD to compete against females is not starting from a fair position. If you let one male compete how do you justify not letting any male compete in the female class? How are you unable to grasp the fact that male athletes will have an unfair advantage against females? That you so despise biological females you are happy for males to take their awards is beyond sad. Your internalised misogyny stops you from any understanding or sympathy for females who have trained for years only to be beaten by a transwomen or male with a DSD.

I look forward to you demonstrating the balance of opportunity for all by listing the transmen who have taken medals against males in cycling, running, high jump, long jump, discus, shotput or any other athletic discipline. There must be loads since you state being transgender makes you the equal of the other sex.

Mollygo

Doodledog I’ll ask the children when I’m teaching tomorrow. I wonder what their response will be.

Good idea. I don’t think it is a difficult concept - different bodies have different properties, so different chances of winning. Of course you can’t measure every single attribute (and why would you want to?) but unless you want the 11 year olds to win every time you build in ways to make it fairer and therefore more sporting. Unless you care more about the older children than the younger ones, anyway.

Do let us know what they say?

Within the parameters of sex, there will always be some who have an advantage over others, so does that mean that trans women should be able to compete against women? How will that provide equality?

Well the children's sports day analogy is so far fetched I have ignored it but here is what happened in schools I taught in. Children ran in age groups because it is easier to organise that way and it keeps parents happy. Before the sports day we ran a number of heats and separated children into three groups fast , middle and slow. They then ran with their group on sports day. I have no doubt that the fastest in one year group could have overtaken the slowest in the year group above them and possibly in the year above that. Running ability is not an age thing.

As far as segregating sport is concerned there are states in the US where participation in school sports is mandated by your birth certificate sex. This as led to a transman winning the girls wrestling 2 years in succession. Mack Begg wanted to wrestle boys but was not permitted to.
www.open.ac.uk/blogs/OU-Sport/?p=2754
His testosterone remained within the accepted limits whilst he was competing.
Is this a better solution?

Glorianny

Well the children's sports day analogy is so far fetched 🤣🤣🤣🤣

What it seems as if you’re actually saying is that any analogy (and we’ve provided plenty) that doesn’t support the fact that lying and cheating to win in the way that some TW do. isn’t acceptable to you.
No surprise there then.
If you support cheating and lying to win it says as much about you as it does about the cheats and liars.

Trans Women Are Transwomen.

It's the only solution. Mack Begg is female, a trans man is female. His testosterone remained within the accepted limits while he was competing so he had the testosterone levels of a female of that age.

Identifying as male with accepted testosterone levels didn't give him an advantage over the girls he wrestled with, he was the better wrestler. Are you suggesting that merely identifying as a boy miraculously gave him an unfair advantage Glorianny? Are we expected to believe that a trans woman loses the advantage of being male when competing against women,simply because the identify as female?

No doubt there would have been serious consequences for the school if he'd been allowed to compete with boys and had been injured.

The children's sports day analogy is not far fetched and I suspect you're ignoring it because it makes perfect sense and you're unable to come up with anything to argue against it.

Smileless2012

It's the only solution. Mack Begg is female, a trans man is female. His testosterone remained within the accepted limits while he was competing so he had the testosterone levels of a female of that age.

Identifying as male with accepted testosterone levels didn't give him an advantage over the girls he wrestled with, he was the better wrestler. Are you suggesting that merely identifying as a boy miraculously gave him an unfair advantage Glorianny? Are we expected to believe that a trans woman loses the advantage of being male when competing against women,simply because the identify as female?

No doubt there would have been serious consequences for the school if he'd been allowed to compete with boys and had been injured.

The children's sports day analogy is not far fetched and I suspect you're ignoring it because it makes perfect sense and you're unable to come up with anything to argue against it.

This is Mack Beggs when he competed and won the girl's wrestling. Many of the girls objected to him. He wanted to compete in the men's wrestling but was refused permission. He was booed at events and said he contemplated giving up the sport he loved because of the restrictions placed on him and the hatred he faced. What is fair or reasonable about that?
Still think he should have been wrestling girls?

As far as segregating sport is concerned there are states in the US where participation in school sports is mandated by your birth certificate sex. This as led to a transman winning the girls wrestling 2 years in succession. Mack Begg wanted to wrestle boys but was not permitted to.
www.open.ac.uk/blogs/OU-Sport/?p=2754
His testosterone remained within the accepted limits whilst he was competing.
Is this a better solution?

Mack Begg was on low dose testosterone, in other words doping. I thought even in the male category doping with artificial testosterone was the basis of disqualification, haven't we seen medals rescinded on that very basis? Ben Johnson of Canada was a prime example. Surely Begg would have been ineligible on that basis to compete against males, and should not have been allowed to compete against females while taking a banned substance. Begg obviously put their own selfish desires above fair competition when deciding to wrestle while doping.
Not going to address my answers to you in my last post Glorianny?

Smileless I hadn't seen your post when I posted mine. As you can see Begg wasn't just a better female wrestler, Begg was doping with low level testosterone doses. In other words, cheating the female opponents.

I changed the 'if an adult identified as a five year old' to 'why do you think schools segregate competitive sport by age, as I remembered that you don't do analogies. Men identifying as 5 year olds would have seemed far-fetched before the trans lobby turned sense inside out, but these days it seems it is not uncommon.

www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/trans-mechanic-7-kids-lives-29215299

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10702865/Trans-killer-says-identifies-baby-demands-baby-food-dummy-prison-cell.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=DBhV-S7kEmA
(NB I have not watched the whole of this video so can't guarantee that there is nothing in it that may be offensive)

The point, as I would have thought was obvious, is that the reason schools segregate is for reasons of fairness, and the same rules should apply to professional sport. Expecting a woman to compete against a man is, in many sports, the same principle as expecting a young child to compete against an older one. Similarly, sports teams in school are separated by sex at puberty, so there are no mixed rugby teams, for instance, whilst prepubescent children usually do PE together, as there is no real risk.

I hadn't realised Begg was doping Rosie. As doping of any kind is banned he shouldn't have been able to compete at all with males or females.

Smileless2012

I hadn't realised Begg was doping Rosie. As doping of any kind is banned he shouldn't have been able to compete at all with males or females.

He didn't want to compete against girls. The laws of the state insisted that he did so because his birth certificate said he was female and state law said he could only compete with girls.

The levels of discrimination posted on these threads are amazing.
Like the insistence that in order to compete Caster Semenya must take medication, but Mack Beggs shouldn't have. If you are to include all drugs and describe it as "doping" how come one is acceptable but the other isn't?
Like the insistence that girls protesting about transwomen have to be listened to, but girls protesting about transmen can be ignored.
You don't create a level playing field by insisting some must be subjected to a rule but others shouldn't.

The concept that testosterone is banned for all competitors is in fact wrong. Transgender athletes who are transitionng can be granted permission to use the drug
^ Transgender athletes who require testosterone during the transitioning process (when transitioning from female to male) must apply for and be granted a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) in advance of their treatment.^

Are there different TUE requirements for transgender athletes?
No. USADA’s TUE Policy is the same for all athletes. In addition, WADA has developed a checklist for TUE applications for transgender athletes.

And Beggs complied entirely with the rules of the competition
University Interscholastic League rules allow Beggs to compete while taking testosterone, but school superintendents and athletic directors voted overwhelmingly last year on the gender requirement

We asked them is it OK if this transgender, this trans male were to take testosterone while transitioning and that's what we got, 'They can take it, but they can only compete on what's on their birth certificate,'" Beggs said. "That's when we were like, 'Well, then, there goes us asking if I can compete on the males.

Jim Baudhuin, an attorney and Dallas-area wrestling parent, has filed a lawsuit seeking to keep Beggs from competing against girls. The lawsuit mostly takes aim at the UIL for allowing Beggs to face girls while on testosterone.

After the lawsuit was filed, two girls forfeited their matches against Beggs at the regional tournament leading into the state meet. All four opponents wrestled Beggs at state, but some parents complained that it wasn't fair. There were some boos in the crowd after Beggs won the state title.

Beggs said the girls who forfeited at regionals were forced into that decision by their parents.

It's not like I'm doing this because I want to, like, call myself a boy and just dominate all these girls," Beggs said. "What do I get out of that? I don't get anything out of that. I was put in this position. Change the laws and then watch me wrestle boys

So nothing illegal

Doodledog

I changed the 'if an adult identified as a five year old' to 'why do you think schools segregate competitive sport by age, as I remembered that you don't do analogies. Men identifying as 5 year olds would have seemed far-fetched before the trans lobby turned sense inside out, but these days it seems it is not uncommon.

www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/trans-mechanic-7-kids-lives-29215299

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10702865/Trans-killer-says-identifies-baby-demands-baby-food-dummy-prison-cell.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=DBhV-S7kEmA
(NB I have not watched the whole of this video so can't guarantee that there is nothing in it that may be offensive)

The point, as I would have thought was obvious, is that the reason schools segregate is for reasons of fairness, and the same rules should apply to professional sport. Expecting a woman to compete against a man is, in many sports, the same principle as expecting a young child to compete against an older one. Similarly, sports teams in school are separated by sex at puberty, so there are no mixed rugby teams, for instance, whilst prepubescent children usually do PE together, as there is no real risk.

I don't think it was completely unknown Doodledog I suspect it was mainly restricted to those who could afford to pay for the service, but probably was available in brothels. It wasn't of course front line news and couldn't be extended into everyday life, but I don't think it is a new thing.

The results of segregating by birth sex are shown in Mack Beggs story.

Bearing in mind the wide physical variations between males, and similarly between females, and of course between the sexes, there will always be distortions in competitive sport. The solution, or reductio ad absurdum, is staring us in the face.

All sporting events should be open, irrespective of sex or gender. This means that only an infinitesimal number of females will actually win anything, and many will be seriously injured, if not maimed for life, but that will be a small price to pay if it means that transmen can compete as they wish.