Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

grumppa

Bearing in mind the wide physical variations between males, and similarly between females, and of course between the sexes, there will always be distortions in competitive sport. The solution, or reductio ad absurdum, is staring us in the face.

All sporting events should be open, irrespective of sex or gender. This means that only an infinitesimal number of females will actually win anything, and many will be seriously injured, if not maimed for life, but that will be a small price to pay if it means that transmen can compete as they wish.

Not sure quite that that is what a transman has said. Mack Beggs didn't want to compete against girls, but he was forced to. If he had a choice he would have wrestled with men, quite how that can seriously injure females I don't know.

Sorry, I meant transwomen can compete as they wish.

Well said, grumppa.

Glorianny, I wasn't talking about sexual kinks, but about people 'identifying' outside of the reality of their biology. In any case, it is a dead cat. As I say, when I realised that the analogy was wasted, I changed it to a straight question about why you thought that schools segregated by age and sex.

Individual cases are neither here nor there, really. Whether CS or MB are guilty, innocent, misused or anything else is doubtless important to them, and to any legal case they wish to bring, but not to the principles at stake for an entire sex when it comes to competitive sport.

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Rosie51

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Wow there's discrimination for you! You have to compete as I say or not compete at all. And I think you believe Beggs is a woman. Obviously not a woman you would grant any rights to.
Why should someone stop participating in something they love simply because a stupid regulation stops them participating at the level they want? They didn't make the regulation.
The degree of control some want to exert over transpeople is positively shocking.
The misinformation and bias is so complicated.
Let's look at it.
Transmen are women but should not compete in women's sports when they are transitioning
Transwomen are men and should not compete in women's sports, because they are men.

How does your open category solve anything? Beggs would still be designated a girl if the chosen method of deciding was the birth certificate. So could still compete in the girls
But let's remember you think he is a female.
How many more transmen would you stop participating in sport and how is that at all supporting these people you believe are women?

Ears tightly closed as usual, Glorianny. There is no point in trying to have any kind of discussion with you.

Gloriannie - do you ever consider you may be wrong? Ideologies can and history shows ,have been very damaging. I wonder how you encourage independent, considered thought in children or young people who are struggling to make sense of complex issues.
It isn’t the role of adults to bully, diminish or ensure others share their belief systems.

GrannySomerset

Ears tightly closed as usual, Glorianny. There is no point in trying to have any kind of discussion with you.

Perhaps you could tell me what your solution to Mack Beggs would have been. If regulations are introduced which insist that birth sex is what counts then transwomen will have to compete as men, but equally, transmen will have to compete as women.
Is that acceptable?

Iam64

Gloriannie - do you ever consider you may be wrong? Ideologies can and history shows ,have been very damaging. I wonder how you encourage independent, considered thought in children or young people who are struggling to make sense of complex issues.
It isn’t the role of adults to bully, diminish or ensure others share their belief systems.

I'm not bullying anyone. I'm trying to make sense of what is proposed and how it would work.
The argument so far has centred around keeping sports segregated and stopping transwomen from competing in women's events.
Then I discovered some states in the US do segregate on the basis of birth sex and the case of Mack Beggs emerged.
He has so far been accused of illegal doping (completely wrongly)
And told he should have stopped competing.
Apparently that is fair and just-well not in my book!

Is that acceptable?
Not to me it isn't.

Male-bodied people will have the advantage over female-bodied ones in most sports. Why do you think there are sex categories in the first place? Why are 'mixed doubles' evenly matched, with 2 of each sex? Why do many people prefer to watch the men's final at Wimbledon rather than the women's? - and I don't care if there is anecdotal evidence that any individual posters do the reverse - the figures are clear (11.3m v 5.4m)? Men tend to be faster and stronger.

Of course birth sex (which is, incidentally the same as death sex, and sex at any point in between) is what counts. What else influences performance to the same extent (all else being equal)?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Wow there's discrimination for you! You have to compete as I say or not compete at all. And I think you believe Beggs is a woman. Obviously not a woman you would grant any rights to.
Why should someone stop participating in something they love simply because a stupid regulation stops them participating at the level they want? They didn't make the regulation.
The degree of control some want to exert over transpeople is positively shocking.
The misinformation and bias is so complicated.
Let's look at it.
Transmen are women but should not compete in women's sports when they are transitioning
Transwomen are men and should not compete in women's sports, because they are men.

How does your open category solve anything? Beggs would still be designated a girl if the chosen method of deciding was the birth certificate. So could still compete in the girls
But let's remember you think he is a female.
How many more transmen would you stop participating in sport and how is that at all supporting these people you believe are women?

Any transman not on testosterone would in my world be fine to compete in the female event. Doping with testosterone is not allowed for any female who doesn't say they are transitioning, so why is there a special rule for some?

Do you not understand that the open category means Beggs could enter it under their identity of being a man using their trans name? But let's remember you think he is a female. Beggs is female, perfectly able to present and think of themself as a man, but biological sex cannot be changed. If the rules state no doping with testosterone, then Beggs has a choice, enter and stop the testosterone or decide not to enter. Why is Beggs taking testosterone? Is it to develop a more manly physique, lay down more muscle than can be done naturally? You seem to have missed that a female who had no intention or desire to transition could enter the open category. Given that you believe there are few differences between males and females, you'd surely expect many to prefer this open category?

It is interesting to note that the only females you ever want to promote are those that want to be men, they apparently are "the right sort of females"!

Doodledog

*Is that acceptable?*
Not to me it isn't.

Male-bodied people will have the advantage over female-bodied ones in most sports. Why do you think there are sex categories in the first place? Why are 'mixed doubles' evenly matched, with 2 of each sex? Why do many people prefer to watch the men's final at Wimbledon rather than the women's? - and I don't care if there is anecdotal evidence that any individual posters do the reverse - the figures are clear (11.3m v 5.4m)? Men tend to be faster and stronger.

Of course birth sex (which is, incidentally the same as death sex, and sex at any point in between) is what counts. What else influences performance to the same extent (all else being equal)?

So you are happy to see Mack Begg win girl's competitions because he isn't male bodied.
That's OK.
At least you are consistent
I do wonder though Why are the women complaining about CS listened to, but not the women complaining about Beggs?

I am really not interested in individual cases, as they can (and will) be twisted and knotted and made to fit whichever scenario you think will back up the idea that women should not have anything for ourselves.

I am far more concerned about the majority of people, who simply want to restrict competition to people of the same sex, as has long been the case in most sports.

You can research as much as you like-and start a thread about your findings GT. It won’t change the fact that TW are male and can only be in female competitions if they lie and cheat.
TM are female, so have no place in male competitions, despite your comments, but I’m sure I recollect you being asked for evidence about the vast number of TM you imply are cheating their way into male competitions and depriving males of medals.
Did you ever produce it or just come up with yet another deviation to avoid answering? Let me guess . . .

I object to Mack Beggs competing in the girl's competitions because Beggs is taking testosterone, which is a performance enhancing drug not allowed to be taken by any of the other competitors. That isn't a level playing field, that's allowing a chemical advantage to one competitor. If Beggs identifies as a boy/man but doesn't take testosterone then no problem at all. I did not say Beggs was taking it illegally, it obviously was within that state's rules, I just don't agree with their judgement. I thought disagreeing was still allowed?

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Wow there's discrimination for you! You have to compete as I say or not compete at all. And I think you believe Beggs is a woman. Obviously not a woman you would grant any rights to.
Why should someone stop participating in something they love simply because a stupid regulation stops them participating at the level they want? They didn't make the regulation.
The degree of control some want to exert over transpeople is positively shocking.
The misinformation and bias is so complicated.
Let's look at it.
Transmen are women but should not compete in women's sports when they are transitioning
Transwomen are men and should not compete in women's sports, because they are men.

How does your open category solve anything? Beggs would still be designated a girl if the chosen method of deciding was the birth certificate. So could still compete in the girls
But let's remember you think he is a female.
How many more transmen would you stop participating in sport and how is that at all supporting these people you believe are women?

Any transman not on testosterone would in my world be fine to compete in the female event. Doping with testosterone is not allowed for any female who doesn't say they are transitioning, so why is there a special rule for some?

Do you not understand that the open category means Beggs could enter it under their identity of being a man using their trans name? But let's remember you think he is a female. Beggs is female, perfectly able to present and think of themself as a man, but biological sex cannot be changed. If the rules state no doping with testosterone, then Beggs has a choice, enter and stop the testosterone or decide not to enter. Why is Beggs taking testosterone? Is it to develop a more manly physique, lay down more muscle than can be done naturally? You seem to have missed that a female who had no intention or desire to transition could enter the open category. Given that you believe there are few differences between males and females, you'd surely expect many to prefer this open category?

It is interesting to note that the only females you ever want to promote are those that want to be men, they apparently are "the right sort of females"!

I support women Rosie51. I can be absolutely sure about the sex of very few of the people I know. I know a lot of women, but have no idea if they are all female. Nor would I dream of asking them.
The rules permitted Beggs to take testosterone. And he did cut the dose right down.
I have never said there are no differences between male and female. I have said the system is unfair and the proposal to ban transwomen does not create an even playing field.

Your open category would still leave transmen unable to compete with men.

Glorianny^I support women Rosie51. I can be absolutely sure about the sex of very few of the people I know. I know a lot of women, but have no idea if they are all female. Nor would I dream of asking them.^
The rules permitted Beggs to take testosterone. And he did cut the dose right down.
I have never said there are no differences between male and female. I have said the system is unfair and the proposal to ban transwomen does not create an even playing field.

Your open category would still leave transmen unable to compete with men.

Not being absolutely sure about the sex of the people you know is irrelevant to most of daily life, but I bet you can make a good guess in 99% of cases. The sex of people is important where it's relevant and sporting competitions is one such area. Medical practice is another, males and females have susceptibility to different diseases ie cervical cancer versus prostate cancer.

I've never proposed banning transwomen from sport, I've offered a fair way for them to participate in the open category. Open, meaning open to all. Transwomen will be able to compete in the open category and not be compelled to take medication to suppress their testosterone, surely you'd be pleased about that? They will compete against a mix of male and female competitors. I really can't fathom that you don't understand this.

The men would all be in the open category so transmen would be competing against men. I assume you're using men to denote male sex people here, as you do when condemning the "white men" who "control sports".

And as I said in that reply of mine you chose to ignore a totally even playing field would result in no winners, no losers just a blanket tied finish. In handicapped horse races that's the aim of the handicapper, that all the horses would finish in a line. It doesn't happen because of a variety of factors. Is that what you want for human sports, that each individual is handicapped in some way to even out differences in ability?

Glorianny where’s your evidence that TM are lying and cheating to do that compete in male races?
You keep mentioning this so where’s the evidence that is happening?

There would have to be a TM category or a Female + open (for females whatever they call themselves) and a TW category or a male + open (for males whatever they call themselves)
If there was just one open category for both sexes, who do you think would enter? Who would win?
That would mean TW would have to race against each other 😱 😱! Males having to race against each other, so no chance of a guaranteed win! Hardly worth saying you’re a TW in those circumstances.

Still comes back to do your support males who lie about their sex in order to cheat females of the achievements they have earned?

Rosie51

*Glorianny*^I support women Rosie51. I can be absolutely sure about the sex of very few of the people I know. I know a lot of women, but have no idea if they are all female. Nor would I dream of asking them.^
The rules permitted Beggs to take testosterone. And he did cut the dose right down.
I have never said there are no differences between male and female. I have said the system is unfair and the proposal to ban transwomen does not create an even playing field.

Your open category would still leave transmen unable to compete with men.

Not being absolutely sure about the sex of the people you know is irrelevant to most of daily life, but I bet you can make a good guess in 99% of cases. The sex of people is important where it's relevant and sporting competitions is one such area. Medical practice is another, males and females have susceptibility to different diseases ie cervical cancer versus prostate cancer.

I've never proposed banning transwomen from sport, I've offered a fair way for them to participate in the open category. Open, meaning open to all. Transwomen will be able to compete in the open category and not be compelled to take medication to suppress their testosterone, surely you'd be pleased about that? They will compete against a mix of male and female competitors. I really can't fathom that you don't understand this.

The men would all be in the open category so transmen would be competing against men. I assume you're using men to denote male sex people here, as you do when condemning the "white men" who "control sports".

And as I said in that reply of mine you chose to ignore a totally even playing field would result in no winners, no losers just a blanket tied finish. In handicapped horse races that's the aim of the handicapper, that all the horses would finish in a line. It doesn't happen because of a variety of factors. Is that what you want for human sports, that each individual is handicapped in some way to even out differences in ability?

So what you are proposing is that transwomen who think they are women would only be able to participate in the open category, women would have a separate provision, but men and transmen could only compete in the open category.
According to your views on the advantage of male bodies wouldn't that mean transpeople would stand little chance of ever winning? How is that fair?
What you are actually saying is that because you think transwomen are men they should compete against men.
But also
That transmen who you think are women should also compete against men.
How is that fair to females?
If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him?

Why does it matter what people think they are? It should be what they actually are that counts - male-bodied or female-bodied. That is what matters in sport.

If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him? So you are now agreeing testosterone does give benefits that would be unfair on female competitors!! Obviously if there was any thought of allowing a transman to compete in the female category the abstinence from testosterone supplementation would have to be for at least a year or two, and they would need random testing during that period before being allowed to return to competition at the end of that time.

I don't think transwomen are men I know they are male, and have benefitted from male puberty. What makes you think transpeople might never win in the open category, because you don't mind males winning in the female category? As you're so worried about men being in the open category lets go crazy and have four categories.....female, male, transwomen, and transmen. That keeps the sexes in competition with their own sex while acknowledging their preferred presentation.

There was a swimming event organised recently where ther was a transgender category... not one single entrant, but the opportunity was there.

The only thing that would stop transmen competing in female competitions is the fact that they’re taking drugs. Taking drugs is not allowed.
Still waiting for your evidence of the vast number of transmen who have entered male sporting competitions and won medals to the detriment of the male competitors, who have trained long and hard in order to compete.
If no evidence appears, I can only presume that was another fantasy diversion on Glorianny’s part.

Doodledog

Mollygo
Doodledog I’ll ask the children when I’m teaching tomorrow. I wonder what their response will be.
Good idea. I don’t think it is a difficult concept - different bodies have different properties, so different chances of winning.*^Of course you can’t measure every single attribute (and why would you want to?) but unless you want the 11 year olds to win every time you build in ways to make it fairer and therefore more sporting. Unless you care more about the older children than the younger ones, anyway.

Do let us know what they say.
Children I asked today, Y6 and Y1
Y6 would you like to race against Y1 or Y2 on Sports day?
There responses were what you’d expect from reasonable people.

Immediate response was that
it wouldn’t be fair.
Other comments
Well we’d always win, so that’d be good.
That earned a few laughs🤣🤣🤣.
(Comment on that from another child,) Yeah but we’d look pathetic if we won against the little ones.
My dad would be in to see XXX (the head).
No, it wouldn’t be fair?
My sister would be really upset if she had to race against me.
We aren’t going to do that, are we?

Year 1 at first thought I meant Y6 running with them, because older children do sometimes run with the younger ones, the more timid, or sometimes with those with issues. It gives them confidence, and encourages them to take part.
When they grasped I meant they would race against the year 6, and whoever won would get the ‘top card’, they just said that it wasn’t fair because the year 6 would always win.

Before you ask, I didn’t bring sex into the discussion.

Interestingly, even the children, who joked that it would be a good idea to race against the younger children because they’d always win, understood the concept of fairness.
Shame TW don’t have the same basic understanding.

That's encouraging Mollygo those children have an understanding of fair play that so many adults seem not to comprehend.

I wonder what they would think of teachers who peddle nonsense in the name of equality?

I'm sure that even the youngest children would realise that there are huge differences between equity, equality and justice, even if they couldn't articulate them yet.