Michael Shellenberger: WPATH - 'Possibly the worst medical scandal in history'

I think there is a difference between being open minded and non judgemental about how people want to identify as an adult (18+) and young children and those below 18 being given puberty blockers and operations. I don't know how it was even ethical.

Smileless2012

Perhaps if, especially with vulnerable children, they'd been loved and accepted as they are there would have not been the need to encourage allow and enable them to take medication which in some cases has led to irreversible consequences, both physically and mentally.

'Transing the gay away' is as bad as conversion therapy if not worse Doodledog because of the physical damage as well as the psychological.

I agree, Smileless, and hope I haven't inadvertently suggested otherwise.

I also agree with you, Galaxy that being open minded in this case is not an option. That horse has bolted. WRT culpability, I deleted a post about that before posting, as my feelings were running high when thinking about the ruined lives, and I decided to consider the whether I should speak my mind.

JaneJudge

I think there is a difference between being open minded and non judgemental about how people want to identify as an adult (18+) and young children and those below 18 being given puberty blockers and operations. I don't know how it was even ethical.

I don't care how people identify, but I do care about vulnerable children, and about the politics of the whole shebang, which is anti-women.

Anybody who repeated the mantra about puberty blockers being harmless and fully reversible is culpable in my book. Puberty blockers were only ever licensed for precocious puberty and then to be used for the briefest of time to avoid unacceptable distress in a young child. They would rarely be used beyond the age of 9 in girls 10 in boys.
Doctors know that puberty is about a great deal more than developing secondary sex characteristics but influences brain, emotional and physical development.

No you didn't inadvertently suggest otherwise Doodledog.

Like you, I don't care how people identify but like so many, I do care about vulnerable children and adults who are 'encouraged' to believe that the answer to their 'problems' is to transition.

When this is the case, it isn't them who has the problem, the problem lies with those who are unable or unwilling to take the time and care to evaluate them and advise and counsel them correctly.

I agree Galaxy so who are these irresponsible idiots who appear to have ignored the significance of puberty on the brain, emotional and physical development?

I agree Galaxy so who are these irresponsible idiots who appear to have ignored the significance of puberty on the brain, emotional and physical development?

People who felt their agenda was worth sacrificing the health and well being of children for, imv.

The motivation for most is money (Bill Gates?), as many have said.
Or being a fated as big fish in a small pool (Susie Green), but for others it is the bigger picture.
Change the world by changing what people believe in.

I don't know what the outcome will be. I seem to read bout anything being carcinogenic these days

I think that is the most crass, intellectually flaccid comment I have read in a long time.
You do realise hundreds of thousands of families and individuals lives (all over the world) have been sacrificed, for others to make money?
Or to puff up their ego making loud noises about inclusivity, kindness, agency, love, individuality, acceptance, suicide, etc. just so those very people can feel good about themselves?

Judging by your comments Violetsky I don't expect you will be suffering from buyers remorse, even if the parents of the affected children and vulnerable young adults will.

Maybe a discussion you need to have with your daughter/DIL

That's your best? 🤣

They seem to have removed his reports which is very suspicious in itself. A powerful money making set of people. Scary and it makes you wonder what else they are doing. Wrecking childrens’ lives and reaping financial rewards. It is the same here and parents are ignored if the child wants to go down that path.

Namsnanny

That's your best? 🤣

Yep!

👍

Or to puff up their ego making loud noises about inclusivity, kindness, agency, love, individuality, acceptance, suicide, etc. just so those very people can feel good about themselves?

I think that those making the money were very easily able to tap into the egos of this group and manipulate them to become the 'flying monkeys' of the agenda. The reason I think this is because of the language (exactly as Namsnanny describes) which was used by the flying monkeys to show themselves as caring individuals who have a 'right on' agenda that sets them apart from those who asked questions and refused to comply with the anti-feminist agenda, who were portrayed as old, out of touch, right wing (even compared to Nazis on here), homophobic, small minded, exclusionary and more. This was done in ways that positioned the flying monkeys as the opposite of those things - ie young (or young at heart), finger on the pulse, leftie, open-minded, inclusive etc.

As for who's behind it all, I don't know what Bill Gates has to do with any of it, but he gets the blame for all manner of nonsense, so I'm not remotely convinced that he's involved. Big Pharma is a definite possibility, but it seems more likely to me that it is an extension of the tide of misogyny that has swept the world in a backlash against the progress made by feminism. The idea that anyone can be a woman, that women should have no spaces to call our own, that we shouldn't be able to prove discrimination as no figures will exist that show the differences between the way males and females are treated - all of that, plus the eradication of women from the language smacks of raw hatred of women, and the flying monkeys have been complicit in that, as well as in the sacrifice of children and other vulnerable people to their cause. I don't think they necessarily intended that consequence, but their egos were so fragile and they were so desperate to tell the world how 'kind' they are that they just didn't care.

PS What has Namsnanny's daughter or DIL got to do with this?

nanna8

They seem to have removed his reports which is very suspicious in itself. A powerful money making set of people. Scary and it makes you wonder what else they are doing. Wrecking childrens’ lives and reaping financial rewards. It is the same here and parents are ignored if the child wants to go down that path.

Your in Australia arn't you nanna8?

In some US states they take the children away from parents if the parents disagree with the hormone or puberty blockers as a treatment.
I think Canada is worse than even that.

Doodledog I agree with so much of your last post.

As for whos behind it, I don't know what Bill Gates has to do with it but he gets the blame for all manner of nonsense, so I'm not remotely convinced he is involved....

Forgive me doodledog but this made me laugh out loud, I felt like my Head mistress was giving me a dressing down because I had bullied a smaller boy

It's hard to describe my sense of humour in words, but this appealed to it.

I think I get your pov, and I could give illustrations of why I named him specifically. That may be tedious and laborious to write and read.
But let me quote one, just a little one maybe...

He has invested in pharmaceutical robotics. Robots which can operate with very little human aid. Robots which can perform key hole hysterectomy surgery.
I first read about it in the FT 2021 I think. So not some flaky website.

medtechdrive.com/news/bill-gates-backed-vicarious-surgical-targets-inituitive-jj-medtronic/606122/

This link doesn't look promising as it hasn't turned blue (sorry). It is possible to google medtechdrive.com and retrieve the relevant info if you are interested (I've just done so).

He obviously knows how to spot a trend, he has made money this way before. Looked at callously, or business like, this market is growing.
More and more young people are going to have mastectomy and hysterectomy surgeries in the future.
So far, the interest in Transing (sorry is there such a word?) hasn't peaked and in all honesty, the small wins we see haven't amounted to any slowing down just yet.

That isn't to say he is masterminding the whole Trans. movement, but it seems clear he thinks/has knowledge(?) that the industry is growing and going to be worth a lot of money, don't you think?

One thing I think is clear it takes money to support a world wide indoctrination, and organisation of this magnitude. Someone or some organisation is supplying it, and so far it doesn't look like the well has run dry.
Until it does I feel pessimistic about our gchildrens future.

I wasn’t dressing you down - it’s just that BG has been accused of putting microchips in people’s brains, being a reptile, being involved with Epstein and more. He seems to be a convenient scapegoat for every conspiracy theorist around, and unless he is the devil himself he is unlikely to be guilty of all of it. Yes, he’s mega rich and able to capitalise on trends (and doubtless to create them too) but that doesn’t mean he does. Keyhole surgery has so many beneficial uses from which he can easily make money - why would he have developed it for the trans agenda? It’s correlation, not causation.

Anyway, apart from the BG part of your post, I agree with you too, so it’s easy enough to agree to differ on that .

I think many people did it yo 'be kind' but unfortunately there have been many abuses throughout history under the guise of kindness. I wonder if it would be better if people tried to be truthful rather than kind.

Real kindness rarely involves virtue signalling on the scale of this though. Diversity Championship flags, visible pronouns, Twitter denunciations- all the public displays of ‘tolerance’ towards the victims may seem ’kind’, but the violence, the threats, the hounding out of office, the twisting of words and attempts to silence any dissent- none of that can be dressed up as anything other than control.

I accept that there were/are those who have been manipulated into believing they are ‘on the right side of History’ (to use a hackneyed phrase from the playbook) but kind? I don’t know.

I do feel desperately sorry for parents and relatives though. I have no idea what I would have done if we’d been caught up in this. Having schools, doctors, the media - even politicians all going on about ‘wrong bodies’ and ‘authentic selves’ on one side and a confused and vulnerable (and much loved) child needing your help on the other is the stuff of nightmares.

I wasn't dressing you down
No of course not, I just found my reaction funny🙂

.

Namsnanny
"He {Bill Gates} has invested in pharmaceutical robotics. Robots which can operate with very little human aid. Robots which can perform key hole hysterectomy surgery."

"More and more young people are going to have mastectomy and hysterectomy surgeries in the future."

^ "it seems clear he thinks/has knowledge(?) that the industry is growing and going to be worth a lot of money, don't you think?"^

Is keyhole surgery used JUST for hysterectomies and mastectomies? What about other surgery? There are dozens of operations that can be done faster, be less invasive and more accurately, with fewer side effects and a shorter healing time than would cutting a large hole in the patient to get at something that is buried deep in their body, behind a major organ. The patient is less traumatised and can leave hospital sooner, leaving a bed for another patient.

The company that Bill Gates (among others) has invested in is developing a system that is more maneovrable than current keyhole systems. This could be an improvement in this type of surgery for all, including the surgeons who use it, not just trans patients.

You might as well object to Semmelweiss in 1847 introducing the revolutionary practice of doctors actually washing and disinfecting their hands before delivering babies, because it would encourage promiscuity if women were not terrified of dying of sepsis after childbirth.

(Your link worked fine for me when I copied it and pasted it into my browser. Maybe you should have put a blank space after the end of it to finish it off)
www.medtechdive.com/news/bill-gates-backed-vicarious-surgical-targets-intuitive-jj-medtronic/606122/

Arrggg! just lost a post to you Elegran too tired to remember it all now ZZzzz

Being open minded though Violetsky doesn't mean opening your mind to one idea and then snapping it shut to anything that comes after. I expect that the people that prescribed puberty blockers didn't think that there would be any negative consequences. We now know that there are. This happens when science makes new discoveries, the two most high profile instances of this happening that I can think of is with Thalidomide and cigarettes. Both were not known to do any harm, until they were. Sometimes minds need to remain open to negatives.

Sometimes minds need to remain open to negatives
It would be helpful if they did ilovecheese.
Especially before they prescribe rather than after.

Ilovecheese

Being open minded though Violetsky doesn't mean opening your mind to one idea and then snapping it shut to anything that comes after. I expect that the people that prescribed puberty blockers didn't think that there would be any negative consequences. We now know that there are. This happens when science makes new discoveries, the two most high profile instances of this happening that I can think of is with Thalidomide and cigarettes. Both were not known to do any harm, until they were. Sometimes minds need to remain open to negatives.

So true. And those who will be suffering the negatives for the whole of their lifetime needed that consideration.

There is very little open-mindedness involved in the suing of SEEN (Sex Equality and Equity Network) member for saying that only women menstruate.

www.crowdjustice.com/case/seen-chair-sued/

As ever, it's people who talk so much about tolerance and acceptance of others who show very little of it themselves.