Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

Barleyfields

Those who studied for HNDs at technical colleges or polys frequently didn’t have the academic qualifications needed for university entrance, even if the subject was taught. Many were working and studying for their qualification through day release or sandwich courses. A valuable qualification for them, and if their promotion prospects were limited by the lack of a university degree maybe that wasn’t a concern for them.

At my girls' grammar school they didn't like anyone who wasn't going on to teacher training college or to university - with the sole aim of teaching afterwards.

As if that was the only career available for women.

My DS left his uni (one of the "New" ones) before the end as he decided he'd learned all they could teach him!
Despite us pleading with him to stay on to get the piece of paper.

We worried that it would go against him later on. As far as we know it hasn't. He has worked his way up in the film industry from the very lowest on those endless credits and is now at age 50 a respected film producer who knows as much as anyone about making movies.

His older DB got his good degree but isn't working in that field and does something quite different. They both had loans to repay.

DD went to further education college, free of fees, graduating with a diploma in theatre costume. She worked backstage at the RSC and could have made it her career but decided to marry, have kids and live in rural northern Scotland. Hey ho!
She now has a career as a photographer......

Whatever they choose, I hope they do something that makes them happy and fulfilled if not rich.

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

M0nica

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

Disagree, your first priority should be to be a useful member of society, support yourself and family, the immediate concern is paying the rent.

Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days.

"Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days."
Really? David you have a very different view of young people to the one I have. The ones I know are hard working and ambitious to get on in the world. They worry about debt, worry about getting on the housing ladder and are more inclined to see university as a way of improving their chances in life so are more likely to turn to the vocational degrees than the more esoteric ones. Yes, perhaps some use uni as a chance to have a good time but that has always been the case. I certainly had a good time, so much so I left before the end of my course, completely debt free and had to get my degree later in life at my own expense! Thankfully I eventually grew up and became, IMHO, a pretty useful member of society!

M0nica

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

👏🏻👏🏻

Well said.

David49

M0nica

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

Disagree, your first priority should be to be a useful member of society, support yourself and family, the immediate concern is paying the rent.

Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days.

David you are mixing your metaphors. There is no conflict between your first priority and my definition of the purpose of a university education. They are two entirely different things that can, and do, exist together and alongside each other without any conflict.

As far as I'm concerned what I've wanted for my children and grandchildren is the opportunity for education to open up opportunities not to shut them down too early

That's the advice I gave my own children. Having academic qualifications keeps doors open. At some point they'll have to go down the path behind the door, but they won't be able to cross the threshold if the door has been shut in their face.

I agree. Some students have always worked and played hard - as do some people who don't go to university and go straight into a job after school.

These days students soon get kicked out, if they don't deliver academically (whatever they do when they're not studying).

foxie48

"Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days."
Really? David you have a very different view of young people to the one I have. The ones I know are hard working and ambitious to get on in the world. They worry about debt, worry about getting on the housing ladder and are more inclined to see university as a way of improving their chances in life so are more likely to turn to the vocational degrees than the more esoteric ones. Yes, perhaps some use uni as a chance to have a good time but that has always been the case. I certainly had a good time, so much so I left before the end of my course, completely debt free and had to get my degree later in life at my own expense! Thankfully I eventually grew up and became, IMHO, a pretty useful member of society!

Students dont need to run up a debt of £60k to get a vocational qualification, many start out of degree course where there are simply very few job opportunities when an alternative would have given them a wide choice of employment.

One niece of mine took a degree in fashion, she is the least fashion minded woman you will meet, 3 yrs on, now has a job in a bakery.

A waste of £60k she will never repay a cent, many repeat the same, university entrance should be much tougher.

David three of my daughter's friends did fashion degrees, one is a buyer for a well known fashion chain, one is living in Amsterdam working for a huge company in charge of quality, the third owns a dress and homewares shop. Another friend who did a history degree at a Russell group uni ( her parents didn't approve of fashion as a degree) is a buyer, again for a well known fashion brand. Fashion is a huge industry, the degree courses are highly vocational and often focused towards different parts of the industry, jobs apart from retailing are very competitive, often poorly paid initially and often based in London. Sorry but I think you may be a bit out of touch.

Of the youngsters that I know the only one that has their dream job is the vocational one, the others despite university, no graduate work.
My guess is that half will find graduate places

What do you mean by ‘graduate work’?

Very few people get their dream job at the first attempt at any level. Many young people cruise around the job market for five years of more settling into satisfying and rewarding jobs.

I don't know what you mean by graduate jobs either. There's the uni Milk Round, that's highly competitive and employers normally expect good degrees from Russell group unis. There's entry level jobs, some leading to further professional qualifications and there's lots of jobs requiring specialist knowledge obtained through a particular type of degree but there's also lots of jobs that don't actually require a degree but employers sometimes use degrees as a filtering mechanism.
Degrees are not a ticket to good employment it is one aspect of what a person has to offer an employer, success depends on lots of other attributes which tbh some graduates have and others don't have.

Jobs that require a degree, perhaps?

Doodledog

What do you mean by ‘graduate work’?

Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you get a first in a relevant field you will probably be headhunted.
Otherwise it’s tough, GD wanted to be an Architect got a 2.1 no jobs, tried for a Masters but dropped out, sad because she did work hard. Now doing admin/clerical at a hotel to pay the rent, she will climb the tree somewhere, business qualifications would help a lot.

But any employer can require a degree to do anything. Does that make the job a 'graduate job'?

Professions usually have minimum entry qualifications to satisfy professional bodies, but they are usually postgrad specialist ones. Otherwise, it is up to employers. If an employer wants graduates, does that not suggest that it is the much derided (on here) student experience that they are looking for? The ability to think outside the box, and to be able to switch between being independent and working in a team - that sort of thing? It's not likely to be a knowledge of (say) History or Medieval Poetry in itself, but proof that the graduate can concentrate on difficult subject matter, extrapolate what is useful, make comparisons between sources and come up with solutions to both abstract and concrete problems.

Of course many non-graduates have these abilities, but qualifications of any kind are simply proof of ability - the same is true of more vocational areas such as plumbing or electrical work - or even a driving test. Most people would prefer to have their house wired by someone who can prove that they know which wire goes where, just as many employers choose people who can prove that they have studied for three (or more) years to an objectively high level, and that their course included the areas that the relevant professional bodies deem necessary.

The fact that not all graduates get into such work is not the fault of the system. I don't think that having a degree in itself should be a passport to work at a particular level - this was the case when they were thinner on the ground than now, and it blocked progress for many people without the relevant qualifications - they are more of a starting point. After a few years it is achievement 'on the job' that counts anyway.

Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you got a first you will probably get headhunted

You are contradicting yourself David, and of course employers are taking on graduates if they consider the particular graduate has the requisite aptitude for the job, and for some positions, especially in professions, a good degree from a good university is required. A crap degree from a crap university will open no doors.

I would love to know how people decide what is 'good', 'reputable' or 'crap' when it comes to courses they haven't studied, so if someone would oblige me with an explanation, that would be great.

Every degree course has External Examiners from other universities whose role is to ensure parity across courses and institutions - I was one for years. Professional bodies decide which courses to accredit, and will absolutely withdraw accreditation if they fall below standard. I have posted before about students insisting they are not assessed by presentation, when that is a requirement of the PB accreditation - that sort of thing is a real issue, although the 'anxious' (and often their parents) refuse to understand.

Employers have lists of accredited courses (they usually appear on the PB website) and can check before shortlisting. The whole point of this is that accreditation is a guarantee that the PB have vetted the course and its standards (which happens as well as the External Examiner doing similar) and is satisfied that it meets the professional standards of the organisation, and that all the necessary subject areas are studied and assessed. Accredited courses exist in both old and new universities.

My GS knew that he wanted a career in aeronautical engineering and was ready to start applying to universities, with University of Manchester being his preferred choice. He also decided to apply to 3 aviation companies to see if they had any Degree Apprenticeship courses. Two confirmed that they did. He applied at the first available intake, whilst at the same time continuing to process his application for Mechanical, Aerospace and Civil Engineering at Manchester. The apprenticeship application was long, intense and multi level but he succeeded in securing a place with an international aeronautical company. His apprenticeship was for 5 years; included day release at a local university, covered every aspect of engineering from the shop floor up and provided a small salary. 8 years on, he's a highly qualified aeronautical engineer working for Lockheed Aerospace in Fort Worth, Texas. He was the only one of his peer group who did not attend university full time, has zero regrets about his choices or the fact that he has no university fees debt.

Seeing on a cv a poor degree from a university whose entrance requirements are mediocre A level grades isn’t going to inspire potential employers is it?

Indeed not Barleyfields. I would imagine that any employer would choose an applicant, who has both academic and practical knowledge to offer would be first choice in any recruitment process.

I would say that he made a very sensible and mature decision OhOhOh. Didn’t follow the herd. Well done.

Barleyfields

^Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you got a first you will probably get headhunted^

You are contradicting yourself David, and of course employers are taking on graduates if they consider the particular graduate has the requisite aptitude for the job, and for some positions, especially in professions, a good degree from a good university is required. A crap degree from a crap university will open no doors.

Exactly what I am saying, aptitude, far to many that havn’t got that, and should aim for a vocational qualification call it a degree or whatever you want.

A poor pass from a poor university is a waste of time yet those universities are taking students to fill seats, we need graduates but not in the numbers that are going to university, it’s not about the dreams of the students, much more important is what the economy needs.
The economy needs more workers at skilled technical level