The NHS will test all children who believe they are transgender for autism under new plans seen by The Telegraph.

Interrupted!

PoliticsNerd

^As long as ‘knowing little about’ isn’t used to deny what we do know.^

And what's that Mollygo? What do you "know"?

We do know that you can’t change sex.
We do know that the ruling confirms the fact that only biological females are women.

I do know that there is still dissent about that from those who don’t want it to be true, and use what they don’t know
to deny what we do know.

Isn't spina bifida something to do with folic acid? I don't know, but that rings a bell, and whether it is or not, doctors do know what causes it.

I don't see being female as a flaw, however it is interpreted, but as I keep saying, gametes, chromosomes and DNA are all particular to one sex or the other. In any case, it doesn't matter why, for the purposes of the ECHR ruling. Are you suggesting that if it can be shown that transgenderism is a 'flaw' and therefore not the 'fault' of the people concerned women should just forget the fact that males have stronger bodies, different hormones and are socialised differently, and let them in? This is not about blame, or 'flaws' - it is about how to protect women and allow us privacy and dignity in same-sex spaces.

Thank you Doodledog. You put that so well.

Mollygo I appreciate your strong feelings on this topic and the importance you place on your own understanding of gender.

No one is denying you the right to hold those opinions but you are denying those who may have different views based on their experiences, evolving knowledge and a belief in critical thinking.

This is a place for debate and discussion. No one owns the right to have their opinions go unchallenged. While it’s okay for us to disagree, I don't believe it's okay to try and close down views simply because you see them as opposing or questioning yours.

Oh for goodness sake five minutes ago you were calling these discussions hate speech, I would say that's a good way to try and shut down speech.

Many babies with spina bifida survive and can live long lives with medical care,depending on the severity of the condition. Yes, vitamin deficiency can be a factor but there are other causes too.

Put simply, sex is determined at conception by the sperm. Male or female characteristics develop over the first few weeks in utero but the sex is already determined.

You apparently don’t appreciate anything I say, but that’s your prerogative.

I’m not discussing gender, which some have used to conflate the issue PN. I’m talking about biological sex.

You can challenge me, or the Supreme Court about biological sex. It won’t make the slightest difference.
Strange that you’re trying to close down my right to have an opinion because it doesn’t match yours.

Strange that you’re trying to close down my right to have an opinion because it doesn’t match yours

Mollygo on re-reading Politics Nerd’s post several times, with respect, she is not trying to close down your option - just the opposite; she acknowledges your right to hold that opinion but also the right of others to hold a different opinion.

Opinion not option!

Doodledog, I don't know who suggested that being female is a flaw. Where did that come from?

Everyone has flawed genes, mutations in our DNA. Some are affected by them, some seem to produce their own gene therapy. Most of this will be beyond the understanding of the majority of the population. We, after all, are not trained or educated in this sphere.

Are you suggesting that if it can be shown that transgenderism is a 'flaw' and therefore not the 'fault' of the people concerned women should just forget the fact that males have stronger bodies, different hormones and are socialised differently, and let them in?

No. I said nothing along those lines.

... it is about how to protect women and allow us privacy and dignity in same-sex spaces.

It's about everyone's rights, women, transgender and men. Bringing it down to toilets undermines the complexity of the issues.

Galaxy

Oh for goodness sake five minutes ago you were calling these discussions hate speech, I would say that's a good way to try and shut down speech.

If that was addressed to me, where did I say that or anything approaching that Galaxy?

If not me then where did anyone else say it?

Allira there was nothing that could be done at that time. However, my post wasn't about spina bifida, per se. It was about the changes in knowledge - changes yet to come. I apologise if I didn't make that clear. It is, as you may imagine, a difficult topic for me.

What did I say that made you think I was trying to close you down Mollygo?

Gender dysphoria is not a mental health issue, it may lead to mental health issues though. The focus does therefore need to be support and it does need to be specialised. There also needs to be more research done into the causes of gender dysphoria, the link to being neurodivergent isn't true in all cases. There is scientific evidence of a biological reason for gender dysphoria in some cases and this needs to be properly explored. Telling a young person "you can't change sex" is about as useful as telling someone suffering in any way to "get over it". Rather simply, people cannot simply get better to alleviate others discomfort.

Thanks LizzieDrip.

It was on one of the other threads PN on this issue, you then worried about GNs responsibilities in this area.

Just stating the truth regarding what was said.

That was to Politics Nerd.

It depends what you mean by support Luminance, the NHS has moved away from the affirmation model since the Cass report.
We can't tell children they can change sex because it isn't true, as far as I am aware that was always part of the discussions undertaken by medical professionals, with adults anyway.

PoliticsNerd

Allira there was nothing that could be done at that time. However, my post wasn't about spina bifida, per se. It was about the changes in knowledge - changes yet to come. I apologise if I didn't make that clear. It is, as you may imagine, a difficult topic for me.

I do understand.

That's exactly why I appreciated it *LizzyDrip"

PoliticsNerd

That's exactly why I appreciated it *LizzyDrip"

Galaxy

It depends what you mean by support Luminance, the NHS has moved away from the affirmation model since the Cass report.
We can't tell children they can change sex because it isn't true, as far as I am aware that was always part of the discussions undertaken by medical professionals, with adults anyway.

Support, listening, empathising, acknowledging that they are going through something whether we understand it or not. Many children are in therapy and there are a lot of ways it is safe for children to express gender without being told anything about sex. Imagine what it feels like to go through puberty and changes you don't want. Children can be absolutely distraught. It needs specialist help, no amount of internet discussion will make gender dysphoria any easier to live with.

Galaxy, it seems there was a misunderstanding when you accused me of labeling our discussions as "hate speech", saying firstly that it was on here, five minutes before you posted. When I attempted to clarify you moved it to one of the other threads. If it were true it would be irrelevant to this thread but, in fact, it too is untrue and unsubstantiated.

I do understand that you don't like your views challenged. However, this kind of comment does not help the discussion. I would appreciate it if we could clear this up, as it's important to me that we all maintain a respectful and open line of communication.