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Underachievement of white boys

(205 Posts)
JohnnyMo Sun 24-Aug-25 09:11:24

๐™‚๐™–๐™ก๐™–๐™ญ๐™ฎ: I must tell the white working boys who are least likely to achieve in education how lucky they really are.

๐™‚๐™ง๐™ค๐™ฌ๐™จ๐™ฉ๐™ช๐™›๐™› : Maybe you should start another thread about why they underachieve as a group. I doubt if it has anything to do with other cultures.

Chocolatelovinggran Mon 25-Aug-25 14:45:20

David, it seems that women teachers are the problem, in your view. Women have been in classrooms for over a century and a half, even back in those halcyon days when you were at school, and there were jobs for the boys, trade schools, etc etc.
So why were these women doing an ok job then, and not now - maybe it's some other factors..
And I do agree with the poster who described her terror of her nuns.
I went to a small grammar school for girls, and several of our women teachers could have quelled a riot and stopped a runaway horse with a withering glance.
Conversely I must confess to being part of the group that sometimes reduced our male English teacher to tears, and leaving the room: sorry, Mr G..

JohnnyMo Mon 25-Aug-25 15:09:24

๐—ช๐˜†๐—น๐—น๐—ผ๐˜„๐Ÿฏ ๐—ฆ๐˜‚๐—ป ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฐ-๐—”๐˜‚๐—ด-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฑ ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฏ:๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿด:๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฎ
๐—”๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—๐—ผ๐—ต๐—ป๐—ป๐˜†๐— ๐—ผ, ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐—š๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜€๐—ป๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐Ÿฏ/๐Ÿฐ ๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐˜†๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—น๐˜† (๐˜‚๐—ป๐—น๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ด๐˜‚๐—ถ๐˜€๐—ฒ)

๐˜ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ด ๐˜ ๐˜ข๐˜ฎ ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฆ๐˜ธ, ๐˜๐˜ต ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ฏ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฆ ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ ๐˜ง๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ๐˜ธ๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ ๐˜š๐˜” ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ต ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฏโ€™๐˜ต ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ฎ๐˜ฃ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ

๐—œ๐˜€ ๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—บ๐—ฒ, ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐˜๐—ฟ๐˜†๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ, ๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ผ, ๐—ณ๐—ฎ๐—ถ๐—น๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ๐—น๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ถ๐˜๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฑ
๐˜‰๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ถ๐˜ด๐˜ฆ ๐˜ช๐˜ต ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ช๐˜ฎ๐˜ฑ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ต๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ. ๐˜๐˜ง ๐˜โ€™๐˜ฅ ๐˜ต๐˜ข๐˜ฌ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฎ๐˜บ ๐˜ง๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ด ๐˜ข๐˜ฅ๐˜ท๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ต 16, ๐˜ฃ๐˜บ 20 ๐˜ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ญ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ท๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฃ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ถ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด๐˜ฌ๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ญ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ, ๐˜ถ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ฐ๐˜บ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ญ๐˜ช๐˜ท๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ ๐˜ข ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ๐˜ธ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ฅ๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ญ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ฆ. ๐˜‰๐˜ถ๐˜ต ๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ ๐˜จ๐˜ณ๐˜ข๐˜ค๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง ๐˜จ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฅ ๐˜จ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฆ๐˜ด ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ, ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ฃ๐˜บ ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ธ ๐˜ฎ๐˜บ ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด/๐˜จ๐˜ณ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ-๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ, ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง ๐˜ธ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฅ๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ต ๐˜ฆ๐˜ง๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ต.

I๐™ฉ'๐™จ ๐™ข๐™ฎ ๐™ค๐™ฅ๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™ž๐™ค๐™ฃ ๐™๐™ž๐™จ/๐™๐™š๐™ง ๐™ฅ๐™ค๐™จ๐™ฉ๐™จ ๐™–๐™ง๐™š ๐™จ๐™ค๐™–๐™ ๐™š๐™™ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ ๐™ค๐™ฃ๐™ก๐™ฎ ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™ข๐™ž๐™จ๐™ค๐™œ๐™ฎ๐™ฃ๐™ฎ ๐™—๐™ช๐™ฉ ๐™–๐™ก๐™จ๐™ค ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™ ๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™™ ๐™ค๐™› ๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™–๐™™๐™š๐™ฆ๐™ช๐™–๐™˜๐™ฎ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™™๐™ง๐™ž๐™ซ๐™š๐™จ ๐™จ๐™ค๐™ข๐™š ๐™ข๐™š๐™ฃ ๐™ฉ๐™ค ๐™–๐™ฉ๐™ฉ๐™–๐™˜๐™  ๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ข๐™š๐™ฃ, ๐™–๐™ฃ๐™™ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ ๐™š๐™ซ๐™š๐™ฃ ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™– ๐™จ๐™ช๐™—๐™ฉ๐™ก๐™š ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™ฎ
๐˜ ๐˜ง๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ต ๐˜ฑ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ญ๐˜บ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ด๐˜ถ๐˜ด๐˜ญ๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ, ๐˜บ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ญ ๐˜ด๐˜ฆ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฉ๐˜บ ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ.

๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜†๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ผ๐—ณ "๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฐ๐—น๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป, ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—น๐˜† ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜ ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐˜๐˜๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฎ๐—ณ๐—ณ๐—ถ๐—ฟ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป" ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ถ๐˜๐˜€ ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฑ.
๐˜ ๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ท๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฑ๐˜ฐ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ต ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜บ ๐˜ฆ๐˜น๐˜ข๐˜ฎ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ฆ๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ต ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ, ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ญ ๐˜ ๐˜จ๐˜ฆ๐˜ต ๐˜ฃ๐˜ข๐˜ค๐˜ฌ ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ถ๐˜ญ๐˜ต๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ข๐˜ญ.

๐—ข๐—ฏ๐˜ƒ๐—ถ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—น๐˜† ๐˜„๐—ฒ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—น๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ถ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป "๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜ƒ๐—ฎ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ" ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ฟ ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐˜๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜†.

๐—•๐˜‚๐˜ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น ๐—ฏ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ธ๐—ด๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ฑ๐˜€ ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜ ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น๐—ถ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ณ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—บ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ฟ ๐—ผ๐˜„๐—ป ๐—ฐ๐—น๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ - ๐—พ๐˜‚๐—ถ๐˜๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—น๐˜† ...

๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ "๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—น, ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ด๐—ฒ" ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ด๐—ผ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ด๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฒ. ๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ด๐—ต๐˜ ๐—ต๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐˜†, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐˜'๐˜€ ๐—ฎ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ถ๐˜ ๐—ถ๐˜€๐—ป'๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜†๐—บ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ.
๐˜ ๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ท๐˜ฆ 3 ๐˜ฅ๐˜ข๐˜ถ๐˜จ๐˜ฉ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ด, 2 ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฅ๐˜ฐ๐˜ค๐˜ต๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ด ( 1 ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ค๐˜ฉ ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ต) ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ ๐˜ ๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ท๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ ๐˜ฑ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฃ๐˜ญ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฎ ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ต๐˜ฉ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ญ๐˜ญ๐˜ช๐˜จ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ต๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ

(๐—ฌ๐—ผ๐˜‚'๐—น๐—น ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐˜† ๐—บ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ, ๐—พ๐˜‚๐—ถ๐˜๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—น๐˜†.... ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜€๐˜๐—ถ๐—น๐—น ๐˜๐—ผ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ป๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—น๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜€)
๐˜œ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ 40 ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ต ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ฅ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ, ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ข ๐˜ฑ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ต๐˜บ ๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฉ ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ข ๐˜ฅ๐˜ช๐˜ง๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ด๐˜ถ๐˜ฆ.

โ€ฆ.
๐—ฌ๐—ฒ๐˜€, ๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—ฎ ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—น๐—ถ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—น๐—ฒ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—น ๐˜„๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ธ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐˜ƒ๐—ถ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ผ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ถ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฏ๐—ผ๐˜๐—ต ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ด ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜„ ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—น๐˜‚๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ผ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐— ๐—› ๐˜€๐˜‚๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ผ๐—ผ.
๐˜ˆ๐˜จ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฆ

๐—ฆ๐—ผ..๐˜„๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—บ๐˜€ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฎ ๐—ป๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป? ๐—ช๐—ต๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€, ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—น ๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜† ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜€๐˜?
& ๐—๐—ˆ๐—†๐–พ๐—‡, ๐–บ ๐—๐—๐—‚๐—‹๐–ฝ ๐—ˆ๐–ฟ ๐—๐—‚๐–ผ๐—๐—‚๐—† ๐–บ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—†๐–พ๐—‡, ๐–บ ๐—๐—๐—‚๐—‹๐–ฝ ๐—ˆ๐–ฟ ๐—‰๐–พ๐—‹๐—‰๐—๐—‹๐–บ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‹๐—Œ ๐–บ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—๐—ˆ๐—†๐–พ๐—‡. ๐–ฃ๐—ˆ๐—†๐–พ๐—Œ๐—๐—‚๐–ผ ๐– ๐–ป๐—Ž๐—Œ๐–พ ๐—‚๐—Œ ๐—‡๐—ˆ๐— ๐–บ ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–พ ๐—๐–บ๐—’ ๐—Œ๐—๐—‹๐–พ๐–พ๐—. ๐–จ ๐–บ๐–ผ๐–ผ๐–พ๐—‰๐— ๐—’๐—ˆ๐—Ž ๐–บ๐–ผ๐—„๐—‡๐—ˆ๐—๐—…๐–พ๐–ฝ๐—€๐–พ ๐—๐—๐—‚๐—Œ ๐—…๐–บ๐—๐–พ๐—‹.

๐—”๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ด๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฝ๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐˜ ๐—ถ๐˜ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐—ฎ ๐—ท๐—ผ๐—ฏ? ๐—ช๐—ต๐˜† ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—บ? ๐—ช๐—ต๐˜† ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜ ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐—ผ๐—ณ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ฟ ๐—ฏ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ธ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐˜€?

๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐˜€๐˜๐˜€. ๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ฐ๐—ฟ๐˜† (๐—ถ๐—ณ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜ ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป) "๐—ผ๐—ต, ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น "๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜†" (๐—ถ๐—ฒ ๐—•๐—”๐— ๐—˜ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ผ๐—ฝ๐—น๐—ฒ) ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด "๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ" ๐—ท๐—ผ๐—ฏ๐˜€.
๐–จ ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‰๐–พ ๐—๐—๐–บ๐— ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ๐—‡โ€™๐— ๐–บ ๐—‰๐–พ๐—‹๐—Œ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–บ๐—… ๐–บ๐—๐—๐–บ๐–ผ๐—„, ๐—‚๐–ฟ ๐—‚๐— ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ ๐–ผ๐–บ๐—‡ ๐–จ ๐—Œ๐–บ๐—’ ๐–จ ๐—๐–พ๐—…๐—‰๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–บ ๐—…๐–พ๐—€๐–บ๐—… ๐—‚๐—†๐—†๐—‚๐—€๐—‹๐–บ๐—‡๐— ๐—๐—‚๐—๐— ๐—๐—‚๐—Œ ๐–ข๐–ต ๐—…๐–บ๐—Œ๐— ๐—’๐–พ๐–บ๐—‹. ๐–ง๐–พ ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐–ป๐—‹๐—ˆ๐—๐—๐–พ๐—‹ ๐—ˆ๐–ฟ ๐–บ ๐–ฟ๐—‹๐—‚๐–พ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‹๐—„ ๐–ผ๐—ˆ๐—…๐—…๐–พ๐—€๐—Ž๐–พ ๐—ˆ๐–ฟ ๐—†๐—‚๐—‡๐–พ ๐—‚๐—‡ ๐–จ๐—‡๐–ฝ๐—‚๐–บ ๐—๐—๐—ˆ ๐–จ ๐—๐–บ๐–ฝ ๐—†๐–พ๐—‡๐—๐—ˆ๐—‹๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—๐–พ๐—…๐—‰ ๐—๐–พ๐—‹ ๐—€๐–พ๐— ๐–บ ๐–ฝ๐–พ๐—Œ๐–พ๐—‹๐—๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐—†๐—ˆ๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡.

๐—ก๐—ผ๐˜ ๐˜€๐—ผ. ๐—œ๐˜'๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ถ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—น๐—ถ๐˜€๐—บ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด, ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐˜๐˜€๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฑ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฎ๐—ฑ, ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ฟ ๐—ท๐—ผ๐—ฏ๐˜€. ๐—•๐˜‚๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ถ๐˜๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—น๐—ถ๐—ธ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—™๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ.
๐–ณ๐—๐–พ ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—…๐—’ ๐—‰๐–พ๐—ˆ๐—‰๐—…๐–พ ๐—๐—๐—ˆ๐—Œ๐–พ ๐—…๐—‚๐—๐—‚๐—‡๐—€ ๐—Œ๐—๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ๐–บ๐—‹๐–ฝ ๐—๐–บ๐—๐–พ ๐—‡๐—ˆ๐— ๐–ป๐–พ๐–พ๐—‡ ๐—‚๐—†๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐—๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–ป๐—’ ๐—€๐—…๐—ˆ๐–ป๐–บ๐—…๐—‚๐—Œ๐–บ๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡ ๐–บ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—Ž๐—‡๐—Œ๐—„๐—‚๐—…๐—…๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—Œ๐–พ๐—†๐—‚-๐—Œ๐—„๐—‚๐—…๐—…๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐—†๐–พ๐—‡ ๐—‚๐—‡ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—๐–พ๐—Œ๐—. ๐–ค๐—๐–พ๐—‡ ๐—‚๐–ฟ ๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐–ฝ๐—Ž๐–ผ๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡ ๐—‚๐—Œ ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—Œ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‹๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐—๐—๐—ˆ๐—Œ๐–พ ๐—ƒ๐—ˆ๐–ป๐—Œ ๐–บ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—‡๐—ˆ๐— ๐–ผ๐—ˆ๐—†๐—‚๐—‡๐—€ ๐–ป๐–บ๐–ผ๐—„. ๐–ณ๐—๐–พ ๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐–ป๐—…๐–พ๐—† ๐—‚๐—Œ ๐—‡๐—ˆ๐— ๐—๐—‚๐—๐— ๐–ฅ๐–บ๐—‹๐–บ๐—€๐–พ ๐—ˆ๐—‹ ๐–ณ๐—‹๐—Ž๐—†๐—‰ (๐–ป๐—ˆ๐—๐— ๐–จ๐–ฌ๐–ง๐–ฎ ๐—Œ๐—‡๐–บ๐—„๐–พ ๐—ˆ๐—‚๐—… ๐—Œ๐–บ๐—…๐–พ๐—Œ๐—†๐–พ๐—‡, ๐—๐—๐—ˆ ๐—๐–บ๐—๐–พ ๐—‚๐–ฝ๐–พ๐—‡๐—๐—‚๐–ฟ๐—‚๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–บ ๐—†๐–บ๐—‹๐—„๐–พ๐— ๐–ฟ๐—ˆ๐—‹ ๐—Œ๐—‡๐–บ๐—„๐–พ ๐—ˆ๐—‚๐—…) ๐–ป๐—Ž๐— ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—‰๐—ˆ๐—…๐—‚๐—๐—‚๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—Œ ๐—๐—๐—ˆ ๐—๐–บ๐—๐–พ ๐—‚๐—€๐—‡๐—ˆ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐–ป๐—…๐–พ๐—† ๐–ฟ๐—ˆ๐—‹ ๐—€๐–พ๐—‡๐–พ๐—‹๐–บ๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—Œ.

๐—Ÿ๐—ผ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜†, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐˜ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป'๐˜ ๐—ท๐˜‚๐˜€๐˜ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ฒ, ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—œ ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฒ (๐—œ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ธ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฐ๐—น๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—บ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ถ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฒ๐˜€) ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—™๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐˜ƒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ฟ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—ป๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ป. (๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—ด๐—ต๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€, ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—น๐—ถ๐—ธ๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐˜† ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ผ๐—ฟ, ๐—ฎ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ธ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ผ๐—ป).
๐—ฆ๐—ผ ๐˜„๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ณ๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€: ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐˜€๐—ฎ๐—ณ๐—ณ๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ด๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฝ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ด ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป (๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป) ๐—ด๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐˜„๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐˜€๐—ฎ๐—ณ๐—ณ๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ผ๐—น๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป (๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป)

๐—•๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ท๐—ผ๐—ฏ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ด๐—ผ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜€๐˜‚๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฑ๐—ผ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜
๐– ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—‚๐—‡ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—๐—ˆ๐—๐—‡๐—Œ ๐—‚๐—‡ ๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐—†๐—‚๐—‡๐–บ๐—… ๐–ฝ๐–พ๐–ผ๐—…๐—‚๐—‡๐–พ, ๐—Œ๐–พ๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐–บ๐—… ๐—€๐–พ๐—‡๐–พ๐—‹๐–บ๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡ ๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐–ป๐–บ๐–ป๐—…๐—’ ๐—๐–บ๐—๐–พ๐—‡โ€™๐— ๐—๐–บ๐–ฝ ๐–บ ๐—‰๐–พ๐—‹๐—†๐–บ๐—‡๐–พ๐—‡๐— ๐—ƒ๐—ˆ๐–ป. ๐–ฒ๐—‚๐—‘ ๐—†๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—๐—๐—Œ ๐–ฝ๐—ˆ๐—‚๐—‡๐—€ ๐—๐—๐—‚๐—Œ ๐—ˆ๐—‹ ๐—๐—๐–บ๐— ๐—Œ๐–พ๐–บ๐—Œ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–บ๐—… ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‹๐—„, ๐—€๐—ˆ๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐—‡๐—†๐–พ๐—‡๐— ๐—Œ๐–ผ๐—๐–พ๐—†๐–พ โ€ฆ

๐–จ ๐—๐–บ๐—๐–พ ๐—Œ๐–บ๐—‚๐–ฝ ๐–พ๐—…๐—Œ๐–พ๐—๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—๐—๐—ˆ๐—Œ๐–พ ๐—๐—‚๐—๐— ๐–บ๐—‡๐—’ ๐—€๐–พ๐— ๐—Ž๐—‰ ๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—€๐—ˆ ๐—€๐—ˆ๐— ๐—Ž๐—‰ ๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—…๐–พ๐–ฟ๐— ๐—…๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—€ ๐–บ๐—€๐—ˆ (๐—‚๐—‡๐–ผ๐—… ๐—†๐–พ). ๐–ณ๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐–พ ๐–บ๐—‹๐–พ ๐—‡๐—ˆ ๐—‡๐–บ๐—๐—Ž๐—‹๐–บ๐—… ๐—…๐–พ๐–บ๐–ฝ๐–พ๐—‹๐—Œ, ๐—‡๐—ˆ ๐–พ๐—‡๐—๐—‹๐–พ๐—‰๐–บ๐—‡๐—Ž๐—‹๐–พ๐—Œ, ๐—‡๐—ˆ ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–พ ๐—๐—ˆ ๐—‹๐–บ๐—…๐—…๐—’ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—๐—‹๐—ˆ๐—ˆ๐—‰๐—Œโ€ฆ
๐– ๐— ๐—๐—๐—‚๐—Œ ๐—‰๐—ˆ๐—‚๐—‡๐— ๐–จ ๐—„๐—‡๐—ˆ๐— ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—‰๐—‹๐—ˆ๐–ป๐—…๐–พ๐—† ๐–จ ๐–ฝ๐—ˆ๐—‡โ€™๐— ๐—๐–บ๐—๐–พ ๐–บ ๐—Œ๐—ˆ๐—…๐—Ž๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—‡

๐— ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ณ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐˜ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—น๐—ธ, ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐—ธ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—น๐—ฝ
๐–ถ๐—๐–พ๐—‡ ๐–จ ๐–ฝ๐—‚๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐—Œ๐—„ ๐—†๐—’ ๐—…๐—‚๐—‡๐–พ ๐—†๐–บ๐—‡๐–บ๐—€๐–พ๐—‹ ๐–ฟ๐—ˆ๐—‹ ๐—๐–พ๐—…๐—‰ (๐—Œ๐–พ๐–พ ๐—…๐–บ๐—๐–พ๐—‹) ๐–บ๐—…๐—… ๐–จ ๐—€๐—ˆ๐— ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ ๐–ฌ๐–บ๐—‡ ๐—Ž๐—‰, ๐—๐—Ž๐—‹๐—‡ ๐—๐—๐–พ ๐—ˆ๐—๐—๐–พ๐—‹ ๐–ผ๐—๐–พ๐–พ๐—„.

๐—ฆ๐—ผ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ด๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜€.
๐–  ๐—…๐—ˆ๐— ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ ๐–ป๐–พ๐–พ๐—‡ ๐—Œ๐–บ๐—‚๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐–ป๐—ˆ๐—Ž๐— ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‘๐—‚๐–ผ ๐—†๐–บ๐—‡๐—Ž๐—…๐—‚๐—Œ๐—‚๐–ผ๐–บ๐—๐—’ ๐–ป๐—Ž๐— ๐—‡๐—ˆ ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–พ ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ ๐–ฝ๐–พ๐–ฟ๐—‚๐—‡๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐—‡๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–พ ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‘๐—‚๐–ผ ๐—†๐–บ๐—‡๐—Ž๐—…๐—‚๐—Œ๐—‚๐–ผ๐—๐—’ (๐–ป๐—Ž๐— ๐—๐—๐–บ๐— ๐—‚๐—Œ ๐–บ ๐—๐—๐—‹๐–พ๐–บ๐–ฝ ๐–ฟ๐—ˆ๐—‹ ๐–บ๐—‡๐—ˆ๐—๐—๐–พ๐—‹ ๐–ฝ๐–บ๐—’)

๐—™๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜†, ๐—œ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐—น๐—น ๐—ด๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ฒ๐˜…๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—น๐—ฒ. ๐—œ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ฎ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—น๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—น๐—น๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐—ฎ ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—œ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ณ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜† ๐—ฎ ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜† ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป . ๐—œ ๐—น๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด๐˜€ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ป: ๐—น๐—ผ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฝ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜† ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป (๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ผ๐—ผ).
๐–ฌ๐—’ ๐—‰๐–พ๐—‹๐—Œ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐–บ๐—… ๐–พ๐—‘๐–บ๐—†๐—‰๐—…๐–พ, ๐–จ ๐—๐–บ๐—Œ ๐—Œ๐–พ๐—‘๐—Ž๐–บ๐—… ๐—๐–บ๐—‹๐—‹๐–บ๐—Œ๐—Œ๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐— ๐—๐—ˆ๐—‹๐—„ ๐–ป๐—’ ๐–บ ๐–ฟ๐–พ๐—†๐–บ๐—…๐–พ ๐–ผ๐—ˆ๐—…๐—…๐–พ๐–บ๐—€๐—Ž๐–พ, ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿง ๐—’๐–พ๐–บ๐—‹ ๐—’๐—ˆ๐—Ž๐—‡๐—€๐–พ๐—‹ ๐—๐—๐–บ๐— ๐—†๐–พ, ๐—๐—๐—‚๐—๐–พ ๐–ฟ๐—ˆ๐—‹๐–พ๐—‚๐—€๐—‡ ๐–ป๐—ˆ๐—‹๐—‡. ๐–ค๐—‡๐–ฝ๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐—Ž๐—‰ ๐—๐–บ๐—๐—‚๐—‡๐—€ ๐–บ ๐—‡๐–พ๐—‹๐—๐—‚๐—ˆ๐—Ž๐—Œ ๐–ป๐—‹๐–พ๐–บ๐—„ ๐–ฝ๐—ˆ๐—๐—‡ ๐–บ๐—‡๐–ฝ ๐—…๐—ˆ๐—ˆ๐—Œ๐—‚๐—‡๐—€ ๐—†๐—’ ๐—ƒ๐—ˆ๐–ป ๐–บ๐–ฟ๐—๐–พ๐—‹ ๐—‡๐–พ๐–บ๐—‹๐—…๐—’ ๐Ÿค๐Ÿข ๐—’๐–พ๐–บ๐—‹๐—Œ ๐—๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐–พ.

๐—™๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜†, ๐—œ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐—น๐—น ๐—ด๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ฒ๐˜…๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—น๐—ฒ. ๐—œ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ฎ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—น๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—น๐—น๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐—ฎ ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—œ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ณ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜† ๐—ฎ ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜† ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป . ๐—œ ๐—น๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด๐˜€ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ป: ๐—น๐—ผ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฝ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜† ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป (๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ผ๐—ผ).
๐–ถ๐—๐–พ๐—‡ ๐–จ ๐—‹๐–พ๐–ผ๐—ˆ๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐–จ ๐—‹๐–พ๐–ผ๐—ˆ๐—€๐—‡๐—‚๐—Œ๐–พ๐–ฝ ๐—๐–พ๐—‹ ๐–บ๐—Œ ๐–บ ๐—‡๐–บ๐—Œ๐–บ๐–ผ๐—‚๐—Œ๐—, ๐—๐—๐—ˆ ๐–ผ๐–บ๐—‡ ๐—ˆ๐—‡๐—…๐—’ ๐–ฟ๐–พ๐–พ๐—… ๐—€๐—ˆ๐—ˆ๐–ฝ ๐–บ๐–ป๐—ˆ๐—Ž๐— ๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐—Œ๐–พ๐—…๐—๐–พ ๐–ป๐—’ ๐—๐—Ž๐—‹๐—๐—‚๐—‡๐—€ ๐—ˆ๐—๐—๐–พ๐—‹๐—Œ

JohnnyMo Mon 25-Aug-25 15:14:20

cut & paste error while trying to format the response land bit you posted should read
๐˜ฝ๐™ช๐™ฉ ๐™ฌ๐™๐™š๐™ฃ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™™๐™ช๐™จ๐™ฉ ๐™จ๐™š๐™ฉ๐™ฉ๐™ก๐™š๐™™ ๐™ข๐™ค๐™ง๐™š, ๐™ฌ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™„ ๐™จ๐™–๐™ฌ ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™จ ๐™– ๐™ข๐™–๐™ฃ ๐™ฌ๐™๐™ค ๐™›๐™š๐™ก๐™ฉ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™ง๐™š๐™–๐™ฉ๐™š๐™ฃ๐™š๐™™ ๐™—๐™š๐™˜๐™–๐™ช๐™จ๐™š ๐™๐™š ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™จ ๐™ซ๐™ช๐™ก๐™ฃ๐™š๐™ง๐™–๐™—๐™ก๐™š ๐™๐™ž๐™ข๐™จ๐™š๐™ก๐™›, ๐™—๐™ช๐™ฉ ๐™˜๐™ค๐™ช๐™ก๐™™ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ ๐™—๐™š๐™–๐™ง ๐™ฉ๐™ค ๐™›๐™š๐™š๐™ก ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ. ๐™„๐™ฉ ๐™๐™ช๐™ง๐™ฉ ๐™๐™ž๐™จ ๐™ฅ๐™ง๐™ž๐™™๐™š, ๐™—๐™š๐™˜๐™–๐™ช๐™จ๐™š ๐™ค๐™› ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™ฎ ๐™๐™š ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™จ ๐™—๐™ง๐™ค๐™ช๐™œ๐™๐™ฉ ๐™ช๐™ฅ, ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™š๐™ญ๐™ฅ๐™š๐™˜๐™ฉ๐™–๐™ฉ๐™ž๐™ค๐™ฃ๐™จ ๐™ค๐™› ๐™ฌ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™– ๐™ˆ๐™–๐™ฃ ๐™Ž๐™๐™ค๐™ช๐™ก๐™™ ๐˜ฝ๐™š, ๐™–๐™ฃ๐™™ ๐™š๐™ฃ๐™˜๐™ค๐™ช๐™ฃ๐™ฉ๐™š๐™ง๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™œ ๐™– ๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ข๐™–๐™ฃ ๐™ฌ๐™๐™ค ๐™–๐™ก๐™ฉ๐™๐™ค๐™ช๐™œ๐™ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ ๐˜ฝ๐™ž๐™œ ๐™–๐™ฃ๐™™ ๐™Ž๐™ช๐™˜๐™˜๐™š๐™จ๐™จ๐™›๐™ช๐™ก ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ง๐™ก๐™™'๐™จ ๐™ฉ๐™š๐™ง๐™ข๐™จ, ๐™๐™–๐™™ ๐™–๐™˜๐™๐™ž๐™š๐™ซ๐™š๐™™ ๐™ข๐™ค๐™ง๐™š ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฃ ๐™๐™ž๐™ข ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™ค๐™ฉ๐™๐™š๐™ง ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™ฎ๐™จ:

๐˜ผ๐™ฃ๐™™ ๐™ž๐™ฉ ๐™˜๐™ค๐™ช๐™ก๐™™ ๐™ฃ๐™ค๐™ฉ ๐™—๐™š ๐™ฉ๐™ค๐™ก๐™š๐™ง๐™–๐™ฉ๐™š๐™™.

Doodledog Mon 25-Aug-25 16:13:02

I'd be interested to know what you (or indeed others):

*Think of my more psychological reflections*:

I tried to address psychology in my post last night.

Iam64 Mon 25-Aug-25 16:35:25

JohnnyMo, you suggest women are as likely to be domestic abusers as men. The number of women killed by men has hovered between 124 and 168 a year since 2009.
On average 62% of these women will have been killed by a current or former partner (femicide census)

Home Office index data March 2020 - March 2022 - 1.8 women a week, eight a month are killed by current or former partner. On average one woman is killed by an abusive current/ex partner every five days.

In the year ending March 2923: 40 men were killed in domestic homicudes, 33 of them by a female partner or ex partner

Over a ten year period, 108 men were killed by current-ex partners. In the same period, 840 women were killed by male partners/rx partners. In those 108 cases, research found evidence of abuse in 77% of those cases

Your personal experience can Iโ€™m sure be mirrored by many of the female posters on this forum

JohnnyMo Mon 25-Aug-25 17:22:34

๐—œ๐—ฎ๐—บ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿฐ ๐— ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฑ-๐—”๐˜‚๐—ด-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฑ ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ:๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฑ:๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฑ
๐—๐—ผ๐—ต๐—ป๐—ป๐˜†๐— ๐—ผ, ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐˜€๐˜‚๐—ด๐—ด๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—น๐—ถ๐—ธ๐—ฒ๐—น๐˜† ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€ ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป.
I clearly said a third, almost every reliable survey has that figure.

๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ต๐—ผ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐˜๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฐ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿด ๐—ฎ ๐˜†๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿต.

๐—ข๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฒ ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿฎ% ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ถ๐—น๐—น ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—ฎ ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ (๐—ณ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜€๐˜‚๐˜€)

๐—›๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—ข๐—ณ๐—ณ๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐˜… ๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฎ ๐— ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฌ - ๐— ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฎ - ๐Ÿญ.๐Ÿด ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ธ, ๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ด๐—ต๐˜ ๐—ฎ ๐—บ๐—ผ๐—ป๐˜๐—ต ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ. ๐—ข๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜/๐—ฒ๐˜… ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฒ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜† ๐—ณ๐—ถ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐˜†๐˜€.

๐—œ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜†๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐— ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿต๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฏ: ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฌ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ ๐—ต๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐˜€, ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฏ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—บ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—ฎ ๐—ณ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—น๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฒ๐˜… ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ

Homicide as part of domestic abuse the ratio is about 1:5, or (30-40:150-200 per year) that does not include men who commit suicide because of abuse.

๐—ข๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฎ ๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜†๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ฑ, ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿด ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜-๐—ฒ๐˜… ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€. ๐—œ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ฑ, ๐Ÿด๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฌ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—น๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—น๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€/๐—ฟ๐˜… ๐—ฝ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€. ๐—œ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ต๐—ผ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿด ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐˜€, ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฒ๐˜ƒ๐—ถ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐Ÿณ๐Ÿณ% ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ผ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐˜€

I would like to know where that figure comes from as most survey are about 30-40/year as you quoted for year to Mar 2023. Also how many of those women were murdered by an abused partner. Yes need to quote either both or neither.

๐—ฌ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ฒ๐˜…๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป ๐—œโ€™๐—บ ๐˜€๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐—บ๐—ถ๐—ฟ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐˜† ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜† ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ณ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—น๐—ฒ ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ

Afterwards I posted my experience on SM twice. Once clearly as a man reporting harassment by a women and once gender neutral "J said : ... D said ". The former had No supportive comments while the later had many all from women who assumed I was also a women.

If you want to discuss this further I suggest you spawn a new thread.

Norah Mon 25-Aug-25 17:49:08

I doubt colour of children causes underachievement. Perhaps it's parents who are involved, disinterested, not reading to their children.

Primrose53 Mon 25-Aug-25 19:51:45

Remember when Diane Abbott said that white women did not know how to raise boys as they do in her culture. I think Iโ€™m right in saying she was in trouble for that racist remark. Then she sent her son to Private School.

Galaxy Mon 25-Aug-25 19:51:49

I know the please start a new thread is becoming a popular refrain, I for one always ignore that request. This is the Internet people can talk about whatever they want within guidelines.

Wyllow3 Mon 25-Aug-25 20:07:39

I'm delighted that you engaged as you did, JohnnyMo. some of our experiences are - almost mirrored.

How the crucial point is, that the numbers of men abusing women and the way they do it - I'm thinking for example of Dads who groom their girls. we cannot get away from the facts of life, that Men and mostly stronger and can violently rape women and girls, and women cannot, that there is non doubt that traditionally men have been "the bosses" at home and at work, and though its changing its still there.

I so welcome a man as you have done being emotionally open and documenting whats its like to behave well and appreciate intelligent women...

...but its my experience at 74 - having been involved in gender and other politics as well as profound personal experiences that things have not changed, anything much as you think to has.

Did your abuser shout at you anything like I got?

I have it recorded, secretly, from my ex

If I were a violent man, you'd be dead, and most men would have done it by now!!!

My son has said the same things as you and many posts here of course have brought up their sons to appreciate women

But you are being vastly overoptimistic about how many men are really as you describe yourself, JohnnyMo. It would be good if you could persuade other men to join you?

I disagree with you profoundly of course on the race and culture side of matters, but enough for now!

Wyllow3 Mon 25-Aug-25 20:11:32

And Galaxy is right - advice to "newbie" - we cant change the thread every time something of partiuclar interest jumps out.... generally....threads do get sort of inclusive and drift a bit, its in their nature, but this thread has stayed very much mainly "on message".

(Doodledog "I tried to address psychology in my post last night."

Yes, thank you I did notice it and it was very much to the point, I guess I just needed to "say it in my own way".)

MadameFeuveral Mon 25-Aug-25 20:28:44

Norah

I doubt colour of children causes underachievement. Perhaps it's parents who are involved, disinterested, not reading to their children.

I think itโ€™s a cultural shift thatโ€™s seeped into all aspects of modern life.

Personal responsibility is something thatโ€™s anathema to many people now. If something is wrong, it must be someone elseโ€™s fault. Too quick to blame others instead of looking at ourselves. Some parents expect school to do absolutely everything for a child - teach them to read, write, dress themselves, eat with cutlery, tie shoelaces, use the bathroom. All this and provide wrap around care so that parents can work. From my own observations Iโ€™d say itโ€™s a combination of selfishness and laziness - not wanting to spend the time in teaching the child life skills, and expecting others to pick up the slack. And the child suffers, because no one can replace the parent, the primary teacher.

Allira Mon 25-Aug-25 20:33:28

Galaxy

I know the please start a new thread is becoming a popular refrain, I for one always ignore that request. This is the Internet people can talk about whatever they want within guidelines.

Threads meander.

Sometimes a topic does deserve a thread of its own but that's up to the person who introduced it to decide.

StripeyGran Mon 25-Aug-25 21:20:22

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

MadameFeuveral Mon 25-Aug-25 22:07:41

Why is the PP a nasty piece of work? confused

During the 2010 Labour leadership race, Ms Abbott stated: "West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children."

She made the remark to explain her decision to send her son James to a fee-paying school after having previously criticised the private sector. BBC interviewer Andrew Neil responded: "So black mums love their kids more than white mums, do they?"

Ms Abbott attacked her Labour colleague, Harriet Harman, for sending her son to a grammar school. "She [Harman] made the Labour Party look as if we do one thing and say another," Ms Abbott said.

She has described her own decision as "indefensible" and "incoherent" but said she feared her child would fall in with "black gangs" if he went to a state school.

Ms Abbott said staff at her local east London hospital who were "blonde, blue-eyed Finnish girls" were not suitable to be nurses because they had "never met a black person before".

She also suggested Jewish people do not face racism.

Etc.

Wyllow3 Mon 25-Aug-25 22:23:03

Abbot I her own words.

www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/sep/07/diane-abbott-becoming-an-mp-dating-jeremy-corbyn-media-intrusion

I wanted to ask JonnyMo ...you got out of that situation, surely others can too? what made the difference for you?

And why is the fact that Asian origin kids in particular work so hard making it "worse" for white working class boys? Surely they are role models?

Casdon Mon 25-Aug-25 22:32:27

MadameFeuveral

Why is the PP a nasty piece of work? confused

During the 2010 Labour leadership race, Ms Abbott stated: "West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children."

She made the remark to explain her decision to send her son James to a fee-paying school after having previously criticised the private sector. BBC interviewer Andrew Neil responded: "So black mums love their kids more than white mums, do they?"

Ms Abbott attacked her Labour colleague, Harriet Harman, for sending her son to a grammar school. "She [Harman] made the Labour Party look as if we do one thing and say another," Ms Abbott said.

She has described her own decision as "indefensible" and "incoherent" but said she feared her child would fall in with "black gangs" if he went to a state school.

Ms Abbott said staff at her local east London hospital who were "blonde, blue-eyed Finnish girls" were not suitable to be nurses because they had "never met a black person before".

She also suggested Jewish people do not face racism.

Etc.

Diane Abbott has never been a minister, so Iโ€™m not sure how this is relevant.

Doodledog Mon 25-Aug-25 22:54:35

I think that if someone believes that a policy is a good one (eg not having a two-tier education system) but it is taking time to get there they have to do what is right at the time. As long as some London state schools are unable to deal with gangs and private schools can protect children against them I donโ€™t think it is hypocritical for those who can afford to to send their children to private school, even when working against their existence. I am not a particular DA fan, but she has suffered from a lot of racism and her son would have that to deal with too, as well as security issues and the possibility of press intrusion in an inner city state school. I donโ€™t think that there was ever a policy to close all independent schools- just to withdraw tax breaks and charitable status - but even if thatโ€™s not the case it is perfectly ok to work with an existing system until a new, improved one comes onstream.

Allira Mon 25-Aug-25 23:14:42

I've got lost somewhere - what is the PP?

Doodledog Tue 26-Aug-25 08:03:32

Allira

I've got lost somewhere - what is the PP?

I donโ€™t know what you mean grin

A previous poster?

JohnnyMo Tue 26-Aug-25 08:22:42

๐™’๐™ฎ๐™ก๐™ก๐™ค๐™ฌ3 ๐™ˆ๐™ค๐™ฃ 25-๐˜ผ๐™ช๐™œ-25 22:23:03

๐™„ ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™ฃ๐™ฉ๐™š๐™™ ๐™ฉ๐™ค ๐™–๐™จ๐™  ๐™…๐™ค๐™ฃ๐™ฃ๐™ฎ๐™ˆ๐™ค ...๐™ฎ๐™ค๐™ช ๐™œ๐™ค๐™ฉ ๐™ค๐™ช๐™ฉ ๐™ค๐™› ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™จ๐™ž๐™ฉ๐™ช๐™–๐™ฉ๐™ž๐™ค๐™ฃ, ๐™จ๐™ช๐™ง๐™š๐™ก๐™ฎ ๐™ค๐™ฉ๐™๐™š๐™ง๐™จ ๐™˜๐™–๐™ฃ ๐™ฉ๐™ค๐™ค? ๐™ฌ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐™ข๐™–๐™™๐™š ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™™๐™ž๐™›๐™›๐™š๐™ง๐™š๐™ฃ๐™˜๐™š ๐™›๐™ค๐™ง ๐™ฎ๐™ค๐™ช?

I lost my job. The company was about to make the team redundant so by forcing me out before announcing the redundancy save the company a about a year's salary given my age and length of service.

๐˜ผ๐™ฃ๐™™ ๐™ฌ๐™๐™ฎ ๐™ž๐™จ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š ๐™›๐™–๐™˜๐™ฉ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™–๐™ฉ ๐˜ผ๐™จ๐™ž๐™–๐™ฃ ๐™ค๐™ง๐™ž๐™œ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™ ๐™ž๐™™๐™จ ๐™ž๐™ฃ ๐™ฅ๐™–๐™ง๐™ฉ๐™ž๐™˜๐™ช๐™ก๐™–๐™ง ๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ง๐™  ๐™จ๐™ค ๐™๐™–๐™ง๐™™ ๐™ข๐™–๐™ ๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™œ ๐™ž๐™ฉ "๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ง๐™จ๐™š" ๐™›๐™ค๐™ง ๐™ฌ๐™๐™ž๐™ฉ๐™š ๐™ฌ๐™ค๐™ง๐™ ๐™ž๐™ฃ๐™œ ๐™˜๐™ก๐™–๐™จ๐™จ ๐™—๐™ค๐™ฎ๐™จ? ๐™Ž๐™ช๐™ง๐™š๐™ก๐™ฎ ๐™ฉ๐™๐™š๐™ฎ ๐™–๐™ง๐™š ๐™ง๐™ค๐™ก๐™š ๐™ข๐™ค๐™™๐™š๐™ก๐™จ?

The other group underachieving are Afro-Caribbean rather than Asian. That said some Asian Muslims also underachieve.

JohnnyMo Tue 26-Aug-25 09:05:46

๐—ช๐˜†๐—น๐—น๐—ผ๐˜„๐Ÿฏ ๐— ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฑ-๐—”๐˜‚๐—ด-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฑ ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฌ:๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿณ:๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿต

๐—›๐—ผ๐˜„ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜ ๐—ถ๐˜€, ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜† ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜† ๐—ฑ๐—ผ ๐—ถ๐˜ - ๐—œ'๐—บ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ธ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฒ๐˜…๐—ฎ๐—บ๐—ฝ๐—น๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐——๐—ฎ๐—ฑ๐˜€ ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ผ ๐—ด๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ผ๐—บ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ฟ ๐—ด๐—ถ๐—ฟ๐—น๐˜€. ๐˜„๐—ฒ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜ ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐˜ ๐—ฎ๐˜„๐—ฎ๐˜† ๐—ณ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—บ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ณ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐˜๐˜€ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—น๐—ถ๐—ณ๐—ฒ, ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐— ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—บ๐—ผ๐˜€๐˜๐—น๐˜† ๐˜€๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป ๐˜ƒ๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜๐—น๐˜† ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ด๐—ถ๐—ฟ๐—น๐˜€, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜,

Raising the issue of male victim domestic abuse I have identified two sorts of women. Some who find ALL domestic abuse abhorrent and others who see anyone raising male victims as a misogynist. Doing so somehow dilutes the campaign to save women. I think ๐—œ๐—ฎ๐—บ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿฐ falls into the later. I totally accept men are stronger and rape is (almost) exclusively a male crime. I don't accept the recent rise in females committing rape but that is a separate issue.

However the problem facing men are totally different to those facing women. A man asking for help is more likely to face ridicule than get any useful support. As the issue of male victims is not discussed as much of female men are often made to feel isolated, alone and even guilty. If they were a real man they would not put up with it. As you know when being abused and controlled, thinking straight isn't that easy.

The fact that a woman is killed by an abusive partner two or three times a week is widely reported and IIRC their names are read out in HoC on International Women's Day. The fact that a man is killed by an abusive partner about two to three times a month is hardly mentioned.

Finally domestic abuse is under the VAWG initiatives so the efforts to address it are seen through that prism.

๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐—ป ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฏ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜† ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ป "๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฏ๐—ผ๐˜€๐˜€๐—ฒ๐˜€" ๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—ต๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐—ธ, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ด๐—ต ๐—ถ๐˜๐˜€ ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ด๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ถ๐˜๐˜€ ๐˜€๐˜๐—ถ๐—น๐—น ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ.
When I was a child my mother was defiantly the boss of the house.

๐—œ ๐˜€๐—ผ ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—น๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฒ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ผ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜† ๐—ผ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜„๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜๐˜€ ๐—ถ๐˜๐˜€ ๐—น๐—ถ๐—ธ๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฐ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น๐—ถ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ป๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป...

Thank You

...๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜ ๐—ถ๐˜๐˜€ ๐—บ๐˜† ๐—ฒ๐˜…๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐Ÿณ๐Ÿฐ - ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ถ๐—ป๐˜ƒ๐—ผ๐—น๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ผ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—ฝ๐—ผ๐—น๐—ถ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐˜€ ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—น๐—น ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ฎ๐—น ๐—ฒ๐˜…๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด๐˜€ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜ ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ด๐—ฒ๐—ฑ, ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜†๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐—บ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐˜๐—ต๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ธ ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜€.

Issue with echo-chambers and bad stories sells papers. It is hard to know what is really happening in the real world at times.

๐—•๐˜‚๐˜ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ป๐—ด ๐˜ƒ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜๐—น๐˜† ๐—ผ๐˜ƒ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฝ๐˜๐—ถ๐—บ๐—ถ๐˜€๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ ๐—ฎ๐—ฏ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐˜ ๐—ต๐—ผ๐˜„ ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐˜† ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜† ๐—ฎ๐˜€ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—น๐—ณ, ๐—๐—ผ๐—ต๐—ป๐—ป๐˜†๐— ๐—ผ. ๐—œ๐˜ ๐˜„๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—น๐—ฑ ๐—ฏ๐—ฒ ๐—ด๐—ผ๐—ผ๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐—ณ ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—น๐—ฑ ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐˜‚๐—ฎ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ผ ๐—ท๐—ผ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚?

As I said earlier "I have identified two sorts of women", if would be good to have more of the former and less of the later.

๐—œ ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐˜€๐—ฎ๐—ด๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฒ ๐˜„๐—ถ๐˜๐—ต ๐˜†๐—ผ๐˜‚ ๐—ฝ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ฑ๐—น๐˜† ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—ฐ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ป ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ฒ ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฑ ๐—ฐ๐˜‚๐—น๐˜๐˜‚๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ฑ๐—ฒ ๐—ผ๐—ณ ๐—บ๐—ฎ๐˜๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€, ๐—ฏ๐˜‚๐˜ ๐—ฒ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—ด๐—ต ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ป๐—ผ๐˜„!

Then re-raise it in your next post wink

Doodledog Tue 26-Aug-25 09:44:10

Two sorts of women?

Don't we come in as many 'sorts' as men? Life is not black and white, and people come in all 'sorts'. Most of us (male and female) are just muddling through life trying to do the best we can with what we have.

I'd be surprised if most people don't see all DV as abhorrent. I don't understand the comment about people seeing those who raise male victims as misogynist. If you mean male perpetrators, then it's fair to say that some boys growing up seeing women beaten into submission might grow up to follow suit, but others defend their mothers against violent fathers, even at cost to themselves. I'm not sure what male victims of female violence have to do with misogyny, and can't imagine Iam being in support of violence of any kind.

nanna8 Tue 26-Aug-25 10:10:12

Some of these posts are hurting my ๐Ÿ‘€ eyes. Too hard.

Allira Tue 26-Aug-25 10:12:38

nanna8

Some of these posts are hurting my ๐Ÿ‘€ eyes. Too hard.

Yes!

Should someone start a thread about post formatting?
The use of ^^ ** for instance?