Underachievement of white boys

keepingquiet

Casdon

I think I’ve entered a parallel universe.

No, I think David is in it!

You probably are in your own universe, you are certainly not in the real world when so many children have difficulty fitting into the adult world of work. The top 25% do well enough, of the rest many struggle, as an employer I saw what you produced, you don’t prepare children for the adult world.

At primary school where male teachers are rare the problems start there, my youngest daughter still gas one daughter at primary, discipline was do bad that literally half the parents moved children

I’m certainly not in the universe where men are right and women are blamed for the failures of society David49, I’m in the one where the greatest contribution to outcomes for children comes from homes where both parents love, nurture, support, encourage and when necessary discipline their children so that when they get to school age they know how to behave in a learning atmosphere, which is not designed to replace inadequate parenting. You aren’t in the same one as I am, clearly.

Of course it’s a cultural issue. Before Thatcher destroyed industry in this country, young men were assured of a job in the shipyards, the mines, the steelworks, car factories, and the like. These jobs gave a dignity in labour and often a sense of community. Now there is a void. The school curriculum, thanks to Gove, is narrow and reminiscent of Dotheboys Hall, - drama, the arts, music, practical subjects all starved of funds and the concentration on narrow academe. School for a child whose parents had failed in school, lack encouragement or any incentive to succeed in the seemingly irrelevant curriculum, especially for those living in the previous industrial regions where jobs are scarce and there is little to aspire to. It’s no coincidence that regional variations in exam success are marked, with London schools consistently outperforming the rest of the country. Of course, London has a much more diverse population and more opportunities available. It’s not just about class and gender - it’s a whole host of variables.

inevitably I transgressed and got punished, I took my punishment

Mm, interesting comment David.

Presumably the ‘punishment’ you ‘took’ was physical?

Your comments suggest you might say ‘it didn’t do me any harm’ … but your attitude on here towards women would suggest that, sadly, maybe it did.

David49

Men expect to be in control of their situation that is not the reality of many classrooms, women are more tolerant and allow indiscipline to get through the day.

So if you like women can hack it and we have seen the results

Not quite sure where this is coming from?

Have you been in a classroom since you left school yourself?

Where do you get these notions from, David49

I think that at least some of the problem is low levels of aspiration, coupled with bravado. The reality is that for all kinds of structural reasons many children from low-income families probably won't stay at school beyond the earliest chance to escape, and they won't get the best jobs or go to university. It's better for their self-esteem to tell themselves and others that they don't care - that they are natural rebels, and that qualifications are for 'swots' or 'posh people' than it is to buy into the (spurious) narrative that life is a meritocracy and they are at the bottom of the pile because they deserve to be.

I taught in an FE college in a very deprived area in the 80s, and I saw this play out over and over. If I could find a reason for students to learn that didn't involve losing face they could do very well. For a while their mothers' child benefit relied on their attending regularly and passing interim exams to stay on the course (I was teaching GCSE/O and A level), and this was an incentive. They could say to friends that the only reason they were there was because the family needed the money (which a lot of them did) but without the sanction it would have been difficult for them to admit they enjoyed at least some of the classes.

Another thing was that in many cases if they passed exams they would be the first in the family to do so. Their fathers and grandfathers had been guaranteed jobs without qualifications, and in many cases the older generations were suspicious of people who had them. Certificates were 'pieces of paper', and students were 'layabouts' and weren't in the 'real world'. The mass unemployment of the 80s and the numerous 'schemes' that young people had to go on to get any money at all were (rightly IMO) derided as exploitative and pointless, as as soon as the scheme ended they were sacked and a new school leaver took their place as free labour. This reduced aspiration further. The area was an ex-industrial one, and unemployment hit boys harder than girls, who traditionally had families very young and didn't have careers. Learning to type or getting a few O levels could mean they'd get a clerical job, so this wasn't seen as a threat when they were young. I saw a lot of marriages flounder when the man was unemployed and the wife came back into education having grown up a bit, though - many of the women flourished and often it didn't go down well. 'Getting above yourself' was frowned upon in many families, probably for the same reasons they don't engage with school - fear of being looked down upon.

I left FE teaching in the early 90s, and I'm sure things have changed - for one thing General Education isn't taught in colleges any more, and the employment situation is different - but I suspect the psychology will be the same.

Also - 'white privilege' does not mean that all white people come from homes that give them advantages over others. It means that being white ensures that you do not suffer from racism and systemic disadvantage. I think the term is misleading. I am in a few local history FB groups and I often see people comment on photos of barefoot children with 'so much for white privilege', and it's clear that many people have misunderstood the meaning. Many white people are (and always have been) disadvantaged compared with other white people but even privileged people of colour can face racism, and systems can be stacked against them.

White privilege is a nonsense term that belongs in the bin.

keepingquiet

Casdon

I think I’ve entered a parallel universe.

No, I think David is in it!

And JohnnyMo, who has been with Gransnet for 3/4 days only (unless is appearing in another guise)

Is appearing to me, to be orchestrating or trying to orchestrate or, imo, failing to orchestrate the whole pitch of this thread

It's my opinion his/her posts are soaked not only in misogyny but also the kind of inadequacy that drives some men to attack women, and not even in a subtle way

Gaslighting: accusing women of negativity when in fact (as in, the strength of single women with children, or the female teacher who can often quell poor behaviour in a young male in ways that men cannot) they are being powerful in a good way.

The portrayal of "poor working class men, who are the only ones not getting affirmative action" has to be turned on its head.

Obviously we have long seen the whines of some of the more privileged men when women "invade" their territory.

But some men of all backgrounds who cant stand intelligent or talented women from their own class because - quite simply ...

They used to be "in control, in charge" in times going or gone. They used to be the ones who bought home the money, and it's a threat when it isn't the case anymore.

(You'll get men into caring or teaching when you pay more, quite simply.... women still tolerate earning less)

But I have met some wonderful talented, and caring male care workers, who do it as they love to care for people.

I recently over several days met in total 5 labourers and got talking to them.

With the 2 young ones, they were very open, loved their kids, respected their wives, took part in housework, didnt have problems engaging with me when I suggested something a little different.

One grumpy older man grumped at me taking charge of a difficult situation (they were sent out without proper tools, so we used mine and I took part) ...until we got talking properly and he said how he was urging his daughter to stand up to her boyfriend as bf didn't want her to do a traditional mans job.

So we are apparently left with a group of men who don't want to take opportunities that are there.

Yes, at a political level we need to work harder providing opportunities for both young men and women, and of course we are now very aware this includes emotional or MH support too.

So..whats the problems with and for a number of men? Why are they domestic abusers, needing control at any cost?

Are they grumpy about it not being as easy as it was to get a job? Why blame women for taking them? Why not get off their backsides?

They are ideal material for racists. They cry (if not blaming women) "oh, well "they" (ie BAME people) are taking "our" jobs.

Not so. It's the direction capitalism is taking, outsourcing production abroad, that is taking their jobs. But they are encouraged to blame non whites by the likes of Farage and co.

Locally, and it can't just be me, what I see (I think this happens in stable working class communities) is Fathers working in various trades taking their sons on. (and of course sometimes daughters, or like my decorator, a woman who has taken her son on).

So we are left with the remainders: the disaffected group of young men (and of course some women) growing into disaffected older men (and some women)

Because they need jobs to go to and support to do that

We can provide jobs (eg, jobs in caring) but when there isnt there isnt the take up....

What is it..pride?

Loss of what they had before, or thought they had before?

Anger? ....blame?... Depression?

But when it's depression, and anger, loss of pride in self and so on, connected with not having a job...

Men find it hard to talk, to ask for help

And its usually women who try and persuade them to get help: we are more prepared to accept help, not be ashamed of it

So men need to change with the times.

*So help is being offered. It's in the campaigns to help men specifically, talk more. It's in the campaigns on a personal level in Job Centres or in GP surgeries or in schools to persuade boys and men of all ages, for example, to take up the computer courses on offer, the schemes that do exist: that it;s worth getting an education not giving up and blaming others.

Finally, I will give a personal example. I was in a coercively abusive controlling marriage with a man, and I was fundamentally a strong and very well educated woman . I let things happen: love and compassion and wanting to please is strong in many women (and some men too).

But when the dust settled more, what I saw was a man who felt threatened because he was vulnerable himself, but could not bear to feel that. It hurt his pride, because of the way he was brought up, the expectations of what a Man Should Be, and encountering a woman who although not Big and Successful in the world's terms, had achieved more than him in other ways:

And it could not be tolerated.

Tying it all together, I think that men are now offered help, men from all backgrounds, but they need to take it up

MadameFeuveral

White privilege is a nonsense term that belongs in the bin.

White privilege just means that white people don't suffer the same discrimination as non-whites

In the last half part of the last century colleges had to run basic skills classes alongside the apprenticeship courses because young men left school with poor English and numeracy skills. Sadly nothing has changed but the job market has and kids need these skills for most jobs. Fwiw GCSE s are not norm referenced, there's a variety of pathways for young people including more vocational courses and additional support in schools ie pupil premium is allocated depending on how many pupils get free school meals, not race, ethnicity or gender. If you want to understand why white working class boys do badly at school you need to look at the culture they come from first and foremost. These boys start to fail from the first year they attend school which is why it's so sad that Sure start was disbanded by the last government.

I’m really blaming the whole education industry, which has become more feminized progressively, men are still deserting the education industry you are not going to get them back.

I believe the education system that I experienced prepared children better for the world in the 1960s than the current system does in the 2020s. My main criticism is the lack of respect and discipline that schools tolerate, resulting in many children lacking confidence as well as basic skills when they leave,

Children that have good parenting have a big advantage, those that don’t are being failed because schools are not giving them the basic discipline they need. For what it’s worth boys suffer more than girls, which brings us back to the OP, many boys under achieve.

The idea that unpleasant men are drawn to a particular political point if view isn't true I am afraid, the left is soaked in a different type of misogyny than the right that's all.

The problem is the lack of esteem in this country for academic and intellectual achievement.

Clever and ambitious children almost always have parents behind them who encourage them to study, and want them to do so and do everything they can to help them. This help has nothing to do with wealth or money or access to resources.

In too many white working class families this ambition and desire to see their children do well in school is missing. Not all, not among most immigrant communities. what we need to do is not help the children but chnage the mind set of their parents.

If men have deserted the 'education industry' it is because of poor pay. Men are disproportionately represented in the higher echelons of Higher Education where the pay is extremely high*. It is people at that level who make decisions and decide policies, and it is very much a man's world.

AI gives the figures:

While specific numbers vary depending on the data source and date, a significant majority of Vice-Chancellors in the UK are male. For example, one report from February 2024 stated that 83% of Vice-Chancellors identify as male, and earlier data from October 2017 found that 80% of Vice-Chancellors at the UK's top 50 universities were male. This reflects a persistent underrepresentation of women in these top leadership roles despite their higher numbers in the overall university workforce.

Key Statistics:
A 2024 report from Times Higher Education indicated that 83% of Vice-Chancellors identify as male.
In October 2017, analysis by Green Park and Operation Black Vote found that 80% of Vice-Chancellors at the UK's top 50 universities were male.

The Trend:
Although the proportion of female Vice-Chancellors has been increasing, progress has been slow, and men continue to dominate these senior leadership positions.

I'm not sure why 'feminising' education would necessarily be a bad thing - I just don't think it is happening. What happened in the 60s is just not relevant to now, either. It may be true, David that your education in the 1960s was good for you in the 1960s, but there are questions around whether it would be good for you in the 2020s, whether the education you had would be good for other people now, and whether it was universally good then. I doubt it, as disabilities such as Dyslexia were not recognised and large numbers of people were simply written off and left to a lifetime of illiteracy.

The world has moved on, and education has to move with it. Whether it is moving in the right direction is up for debate, but harking back to 60 years ago is pointless.

*(from Student Beans) In 2021-2022 the average salary for vice-chancellors of Russell Group universities increased by 6% to £413,000, including pensions and benefits on top of their basic salaries. We now have the latest data for the 2022-23 year too which has shown that across the UK’s 24 Russell Group universities, the average salary still exceeds £400,000, with more than two-thirds of them awarding vice-chancellors pay rises over the last year.

However, the reality is many VCs are earning much, much more, with the vice-chancellor of Oxford University taking home a whopping £1,048,000 per year.

In the 1960s the teaching profession was already "feminised" with female teachers over represented in primary school and with male teachers over represented in every leadership role and the secondary sector. On teaching practice in the late 60's in a secondary school in a disadvantages area of Birmingham I was given an English bottom set. All boys who arrived at my first lesson with comics and football annuals. A lad explained that I didn't need to teach them, Sir did his marking whilst they read comics and kept their mouths shut. That was how people kept discipline in the 60's! Thank goodness that changed but no wonder we have older generations who do not value education, some of them never got any!

We are not feminising it David.

We are equalising it.

It feels to you as a family traditional male (not in the very bad ways, of course1)

That equalising = taking over.

I don't experience women as taking over, I don't know how other women feel here: but in my lifetime I've watched women enter male areas and a male power structure bit by bit:

And the result certainly does not practically or emotionally feel like some kind of a win

It feels like some kind of a balance.

foxie48 The grading of GCSEs is norm referenced with a results curve which is more or less the same every year for individual subjects. The point is that the system won't allow a 100% pass rate. I agree that there are alternative qualifications, but they weren't being discussed.

growstuff

foxie48 The grading of GCSEs is norm referenced with a results curve which is more or less the same every year for individual subjects. The point is that the system won't allow a 100% pass rate. I agree that there are alternative qualifications, but they weren't being discussed.

I don't think it is. Please see the attached letter dated 20/03/23

committees.parliament.uk/publications/39051/documents/191996/default/

I've been wondering a bit if JohnnyMo is going to come back in the comment on the many answers to the queries he/she set up.

Just popped him/her in the search engine and the name appears for the very first time 4 days ago....then stopped suddenly yesterday.

Bank holiday maybe, but a little disappointing, as we've subsequently commented so much on the O/P.

Wyllow3

I've been wondering a bit if JohnnyMo is going to come back in the comment on the many answers to the queries he/she set up.

Just popped him/her in the search engine and the name appears for the very first time 4 days ago....then stopped suddenly yesterday.

Bank holiday maybe, but a little disappointing, as we've subsequently commented so much on the O/P.

I was at the gym this morning, I was writing a response to your post

growstuff

foxie48 The grading of GCSEs is norm referenced with a results curve which is more or less the same every year for individual subjects. The point is that the system won't allow a 100% pass rate. I agree that there are alternative qualifications, but they weren't being discussed.

Growstuff my point about the alternative quals wasn't aimed at you but at other posts that suggested the curriculum needs changing. Actually there's been a lot of change, particularly around the basic skills area which recognises that some children won't get even a foundation level at maths GCSE but they still need to be numerate to function in society. There's also been an opening up of vocational quals with links to FE colleges that have been reasonably successful in engaging disaffected youngsters but it is an uphill battle in some schools.

foxie48

growstuff

foxie48 The grading of GCSEs is norm referenced with a results curve which is more or less the same every year for individual subjects. The point is that the system won't allow a 100% pass rate. I agree that there are alternative qualifications, but they weren't being discussed.

I don't think it is. Please see the attached letter dated 20/03/23

committees.parliament.uk/publications/39051/documents/191996/default/

I could point out the holes in that, I'm afraid, but I'm a bit busy atm. It's a whitewash of what really happens. Maybe I'll come to it later, if I find time.

Ah, Hi there, JohhnyMo. A swim, in this weather?

I'd be interested to know what you (or indeed others):

*Think of my more psychological reflections*:

Since after all,

^How one feels about oneself as not employed or employed, or as a man or woman, or as a parental role model - as a teacher, or one being taught, whether its a man or woman in an individual example -

is inseparable from the the larger political forces at play...

Its my POV we cant discuss one without the other

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gcse-and-a-level-grading-what-you-need-to-know/gcse-and-a-level-grading-what-you-need-to-know

Growstuff this might be helpful