An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

People are also muddling religion and FGM. It is largely a cultural practice as apposed to religious practice. So, religions including Jewish, Christianity, Islam, have in the past and some still do practice it, largely in North Africa where it coincides with the main religions of lslam and Christianity.

It can be said the same of the burka. It is a cultural practice where the requirement for modesty in women is taken to the extreme.

foxie48 why is there a current advertising campaign about the horror of FGM and help begged to stop it?

Have you missed it?

Why the need for such a huge campaign if it's not common practice, whether illicitly here or abroad?

As for the old trope of me actually knowing any Muslims, just a laughable assumption on your part.

And you haven't given an example of any other faith or ethnic group involved in these practices nor given any information on any leaders of the faith who have actually condemned either practice in spoken or written word.

Do they advise their flocks it's wrong or not? Straight, clear facts would be appreciated rather than woolly supposition.

Exactly Whitewavemark2as myself and other posters have stated quite a few times upthread.

Covering is also a cultural practice widespread amongst all religions which has changed over time.

All mainstream religions have had a requirement that females dress modestly at one time or another. The degree of cover has definitely changed.

When I was a child and young person, women were required to cover their heads when entering church, and women who joined a holy order were covered head to toe - reminiscent of the covers used today by Islamic women. Their lives were completely given over to their god, just as I think followers of Islam feel today. Just listen to the Palestinian peopke talking, god seems to be in every sentence.
Certain women belonging to Jewish sects are required cover their head, and they use a novel way by using quite glamorous wigs.

Hindu women follow the cultural practice of covering their heads - often leaving their midriff exposed 😊

These things change over time. What is clear though is that when a religion and cultural practice feels under pressure the adherents often double down and follow these practices almost as a defence.

Hindu women follow the cultural practice of covering their heads - often leaving their midriff exposed 😊
Can't say we ever saw our neighbour's midriff exposed 😁
However, she did have the most beautiful saris which she wore to work, changing into trousers and t shirts when she got home!

Agreed again Whitewavemark2 which is why my Sunday mass lace mantilla went straight in the bin when I was an early teen and began to really question what the tenets of Catholicism were about.

And this from a girl who knew every word to "Faith of our Fathers' holy faith and was a bit disturbingly obsessed with the Forty Martyrs at the age of 10.

Just shows what a good old, religiously indoctrinated childhood can make you believe until intellectual rigour kicks in and you begin to think "hmmm...."

Most mosques do not give out the warnings you mention Nannee49 for the same reason the priest at my church does not speak out and condemn them either. Because they would be irrelevant as none of their congregation would ever think of doing such things and are as horrified as we are when they hear about such events.

Muslim men who wish to follow and respect their dress code also stress modesty and simplicity, by the way, just as Christian Monks do. they are required, if following the requirements, that clothes should not reveal the shape or figure of the body. Obviously its not the same as face coverings, but it's worth noting.

Wyllow3

Muslim men who wish to follow and respect their dress code also stress modesty and simplicity, by the way, just as Christian Monks do. they are required, if following the requirements, that clothes should not reveal the shape or figure of the body. Obviously its not the same as face coverings, but it's worth noting.

Which is why most of them wear modern western dress.

Wyllow3 you are not correct in the reason monks wear what they do.

Monks, most religious, take vows of poverty, chastity and obiedience. The lead one of these is poverty and the early monks, most from wealthy families shpwed their devotion to their cause and their vow, by wearing exacty the same clothes as the poorest people in society wore, a long shapeless shift tied at the waist with rope. Many Franciscan monks still go around with bare feet in open toes sandals. They see their robe as representing poverty and penance, modesty is the result, but not the aim. These days many monks dress like ordinary men in society.

I'm remembering tales from Cadfael, where posh monks managed still to dress with as much finery as was possible 🙂.

But both are indicators of religion or culture.

Wyllow3

I'm remembering tales from Cadfael, where posh monks managed still to dress with as much finery as was possible 🙂.

But both are indicators of religion or culture.

Oh yes, that happened very quickly, comfort and warmth and then all the usual temptations of money and power, but the origins were in poverty.

One of the reasons, or excuses depending on how you view it, for the Dissolution of the Monasteries, was the dissolute life style of some of the inhabitants of some of the monasteries.

Exactly, there were other reasons, but ths thread is about the burqa, not about Henry VIII and power politics.

Sometimes some Hindu women wear short blouses under their saris, with the midriff slightly exposed, including older women.

I think head coverings are fine, not many would have a problem with that. The issue is the full facial masks with slits for the eyes and sometimes even crisscross pieces over the eyes. Alien to me and quite threatening because there could be anyone behind the masks, male or female. The wearers of these outfits also seem to be quite hostile by their body language . I wouldn’t wander round their countries in shorts and T shirt, it would be rude so why are they being rude to us ?

Dear me, MOnica, how rude.

You think this is not about power politics?

eazybee

Dear me, MOnica, how rude.

You think this is not about power politics?

yes, of course it is about power politics, but the thread is about the burqa, not the complicated power politics of 16th century England.

To be precise Henry VIII was short of money. The monastries were growing rich and a challenge to the king because when richpeople and landowners died they would leave land and possessions to the church, which could hold them in perpetuity.

As a result, more and more of the land in the country was falling into the hands of the church, which was becoming so rich that it could challenge the kings authority.

Money and the contest for pwer was the core raiso d'etre for the repression of the monasteries, but needed polpuar support. ordinary people had very little interest in power politics between King and Church, so the King employed some public relataions advisors who recommended that he sell his actions to the public as being rich monks and monasteries living high on the ho while the poor starved. This was, of course, not accurate as many monasteries and nunneries were both small and poor, but also the monasteries and nunneries provided thw welfare state of the period. They ran hospitals, fed the poor, provided overnight shelter, all things which disappeared with the monsteries.

By the end of Henry VIIIs life destitute people were walking the roads and becoming a threat to civil order because they no longer had the support of the religious houses and you had the first of the Poor Law acts to try to contain the problem and force communities to support their own poor.

Now what all this ahs got to do with wearing the burqa I do not know, but you asked.

Maybe some cultures are inferior to others.

Grantanow

Maybe some cultures are inferior to others.

Good heavens! Different yes, but inferior, it alldepends which side yoy are looking from

M0nica

Grantanow

Maybe some cultures are inferior to others.

Good heavens! Different yes, but inferior, it alldepends which side yoy are looking from

Any culture that endorses FGM, or values a female testimony as worth half a male testimony, or commands women to be subservient to a male, or silences the female voice......yes I'm happy to designate it as an inferior culture. I don't care the colour, religion or sex of the offender, in my opinion they're all wrong and I won't be silenced.

Rosi51 you exactly illustrate my point.

The advantage of living in a society like the UK is we can hold different opinions and we can express them provided we stay within the law. Tbh I don't think anyone is trying to silence you,Monica but I don't like the expression "inferior" either, it's a value judgement made from a hegemonic position. You can make it but I don't have like it. Vive la difference! GN would be very boring if it was just an echo chamber.
IMO most of the major changes in cultural norms, especially those affecting women, have come about by economic conditions driving political action. We don't have to go back in our own history to see aspects of our behaviour that is viewed now as totally appalling. Those countries in Africa that still allow Fmg eg Somalia, Mali, Sierra Leone are poverty stricken and have suffered with wars and famines. I don't think that's unrelated.

Whoops sorry I should have said Rosie !

It's remarkable that men do not wear burqas or similar . Without exception, extreme modesty is forced upon women by men. Often the women concerned are compliant.

The burqa , besides being outstandingly modest, is also impractical for hard work in field or factory and therefor signals that the woman's family is so affluent their women don/t have to do manual work.

Affluent families traditionally displayed their women as ornamental possessions, not persons of the same status as men. E.g. men did not wear stiletto heels.