An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

I agree Monica I don’t like him either but I cut anyone some slack for what they said as a teenager.

How can anyone confuse actual racism with unacceptable cultural norms?

Mutilating little girls for men's sexual satisfaction is a cultural norm in certain societies. Is it being rascist to say such a vile, disgusting practice is wrong?

Nannee49

How can anyone confuse actual racism with unacceptable cultural norms?

Mutilating little girls for men's sexual satisfaction is a cultural norm in certain societies. Is it being rascist to say such a vile, disgusting practice is wrong?

Do you think mutilating baby boys at eight days old is ok?

Circumcising is carried out with minimal to no pain relief in Brit Milan (Bris) usually done at home 🤷‍♀️

I don't think mutilation of any sort is "ok" GrannyGravy13

Nannee49

I don't think mutilation of any sort is "ok" GrannyGravy13

Agreed 👍

Thanks GrannyGravy13

Sorry but I haven't read the whole thread but the wearing of a burqa IME has been evidence of certain cultural norms based on patriachy rather than specifically to do with the Muslim faith. Islam only requires a female to dress modestly, same as most other religions. It's also, again IME, been more frequently associated with a lack of education when enforced by men and a wish to be recognised as religious observance when worn by choice. Anyone who suggests the burqa only in the home, is completely misunderstanding it's purpose. Most religions have been built on patriachy, Christianity included no epistles written by females, although Priscilla might have given Paul a helping hand she's certainly not credited! FMG is nothing to do with religion and it is illegal in the UK and many countries in Africa, Asia etc. It is definitely not racist to say it is a cruel and horrible act of aggression towards female children and I don't think anyone suggests that it is??
Khadija Khan is a Muslim who saw her mother beaten when she refused to wear a hijab. By any standards that is totally wrong but I also think it's wrong to believe that ALL Muslim men think the failure to wear a hijab means a woman is sexually available is also totally wrong. Some might, many others definitely won't, to suggest otherwise is stereotyping and that is IMO is what makes it racist!

foxie48 I don’t think it’s racist as there are Muslims of many different ethnicities.

Could it be Islamaphobic maybe 🤷‍♀️

If I went to one of the countries that demanded I follow their culture, I would comply. In this country the Burkha is not of our culture. Why do we accept this practise? As a country are we too accepting that other cultures repress their women. We need to be more in control of our own culture.

sue421

If I went to one of the countries that demanded I follow their culture, I would comply. In this country the Burkha is not of our culture. Why do we accept this practise? As a country are we too accepting that other cultures repress their women. We need to be more in control of our own culture.

What is "our culture". I suspect my idea of my culture might be very different to what you think it might be.

Are there men in the UK who oppress their wives and partners? I think there are!

Do we adhere to other countries cultures? I don't think so but we adhere to their laws (if we are at all sensible) and we expect those who live in the UK to also accept our laws.

GrannyGravy13

foxie48 I don’t think it’s racist as there are Muslims of many different ethnicities.

Could it be Islamaphobic maybe 🤷‍♀️

I won't split hairs, but stereotyping is at the heart of racism IMO and Islamophobia is a type of racism.

foxie48

sue421

If I went to one of the countries that demanded I follow their culture, I would comply. In this country the Burkha is not of our culture. Why do we accept this practise? As a country are we too accepting that other cultures repress their women. We need to be more in control of our own culture.

What is "our culture". I suspect my idea of my culture might be very different to what you think it might be.

Are there men in the UK who oppress their wives and partners? I think there are!

Do we adhere to other countries cultures? I don't think so but we adhere to their laws (if we are at all sensible) and we expect those who live in the UK to also accept our laws.

I sincerely doubt that anyone’s idea of our culture in the UK is anything remotely like Afghanistan or very many repressive countries to women that there are all over the world.

If FGM is a practice not condemned outright by Islam, which to my knowledge it completely is not, why is it Islamophobic to be appalled by the cutting of little girls and censured as an implied bigot to say so?

France has even banned headscarves for girls in many schools.

We could easily ban the burqa and the niqab here at least.
Politics isn’t it? Afraid of losing the Muslim votes.

sue421

If I went to one of the countries that demanded I follow their culture, I would comply. In this country the Burkha is not of our culture. Why do we accept this practise? As a country are we too accepting that other cultures repress their women. We need to be more in control of our own culture.

I agree, Sue.

And two wrongs never make a right.

Of course there are men in the UK who repress their wives, it's still a dreadful, shocking state of affairs but the huge, obvious difference is, and I surely shouldn't need to point this out, in the UK we women have a voice, we can shout from the rooftops if we so desire and no-one can shut us up.

Brave, brave women have brought about changes in the law so that coercive control is a crime.
We cannot allow that to be diluted in any way.

Those who speak of "when in Rome ...." seem to have pushed to the back of their minds the long period of time when many countries were ruled by the British Empire, and other powerful European countries. As I said before, they had no intentions whatsoever of adapting to the dress and cultural norms of the countries they occupied. So why are some people so outraged that people with different religions and cultural practices are reluctant to change their ways. Why do we feel it was OK for us to retain our way of life in a country that we forcibly took over and yet there is outrage from some quarters when incoming people want to do the same.

I agree with Babs that this constant criticism of women who wear burkas is just a flimsy disguise for racism. Sometimes I am surprised at what some women wear and think it inadvisable - eg skirts so miniscule that you can see be-thonged bottoms going up the escalator. However, what other people wear is their business and I think most people would be outraged if a law was brought in to prevent women from exposing their bodies.

Muslims feel particularly under scrutiny and subject to criticism at this time, and the only way they feel they can oppose this constant carping is to show their pride in their culture.

Personally, I don't like any religions as I feel they are overwhelmingly male-dominated and are often creating division. However my feeling is that if people keep getting criticised and targetted for their beliefs and practices they will become even more entrenched in them. So I would like to see people being less pompous and judgmental of people who are different from them, and then maybe everyone will loosen up a bit and get along better. After all, hate can only breed more hate.

Yes,Eloethan hate can only breed more hate and it isn't a one way thing.

You're absolutely correct in saying there was a complete denial by the oppressors at the time of the empire to engage in any way with the countries they had pillaged but have we not evolved as a society since then? Women, that's us, didn't even have the vote for God's sake!

And I also totally agree with your view on organised religion, responsible for so many ills.

But, I strongly disagree with your view of rascism being bandied about regarding the calling out of horrific practices like FGM and so called "honour" killings. I WILL be pompous and judgmental about anyone who adheres to such a different moral code of callously, determindly inflicting suffering on little girls and women.

Wouldn't it be lovely if everyone adopted your spirit of "hey, guys, let's all loosen up here and everything will be cool" then no female would go in fear of being cut in their most intimate of places or being strangled and shoved into a suitcase for shame.

Eloethan How can criticising the burqa be racist when the vast majority of women of all ethnicities and cultures do not wear it and we are all well aware of that and have always made that clear.

As for your comments on Brtiains not adapting to cultural norms in countries we colonised. Show me an invading power from the Romans on that did - anywhere. Look at China now, and the horrors it is imposing on the Uighurs. People emigrtaing from one culture to another are usually expected to assimilate, learn the language etc. Assimilating into the national culture and keep one's cultural identity are not impossible.

How anyone can look how the government is Afghanistan is using the burqa, to eliminate women from doing anything in society or being anything but invisible procreators of boys, and then define opposing the burga as racist defeats me.

In fact we absorbed much from all the countries we claimed mastery over. Just look at the loan words in our language the cuisines, the fabrics, patterns etc etc.

Nannee49

Yes,Eloethan hate can only breed more hate and it isn't a one way thing.

You're absolutely correct in saying there was a complete denial by the oppressors at the time of the empire to engage in any way with the countries they had pillaged but have we not evolved as a society since then? Women, that's us, didn't even have the vote for God's sake!

And I also totally agree with your view on organised religion, responsible for so many ills.

But, I strongly disagree with your view of rascism being bandied about regarding the calling out of horrific practices like FGM and so called "honour" killings. I WILL be pompous and judgmental about anyone who adheres to such a different moral code of callously, determindly inflicting suffering on little girls and women.

Wouldn't it be lovely if everyone adopted your spirit of "hey, guys, let's all loosen up here and everything will be cool" then no female would go in fear of being cut in their most intimate of places or being strangled and shoved into a suitcase for shame.

Wow, really good post!😃

Thanks Oreo

Nannee49 the only problem with your post is you seem to be confused about what racism actually is. I don't think anyone on this thread defends illegal behaviour ie FMG, honour killings in any way. It is not the racist to condemn these behaviours and I haven't seen a single post that suggests that it is. What is potentially racist is the stereotyping of certain illegal behaviours as typical of an ethnic group or as an accepted cultural practice. FMG, for example, is practiced in some communities but it neither a religious practice nor is it acceptable or legal in those countries where in the past it's been seen as a cultural norm. So, feel free to state your abhorance of these practices, you are in good company. You are quite correct in objecting to these practices and the majority of Muslims will agree with you.

Show me another ethnic group and or religion who routinely practice and in some areas actually endorse FGM or killings foxie48 and I will give some thought to your patronising, silly comment about any "confusion" on my behalf.

I've yet to hear of any edict given out at Friday prayers ever, condemning either FGM or the murder of young women, perhaps you can give me information on the numbers and regularity of such condemnation in support your sweeping statement that the majority of Muslims agree with me.

Maybe it's you who needs more education as to what abhorence of a vile culture as opposed to the easy term of "racism" actually is? After all, human sacrifice was once a very commonly accepted practice across many cultures, races and creeds.

Nannee49 if you actually believe that Muslims practice FMG and honour killings as a "routine" then I can only assume that you don't actually know any Muslims. I do and I can assure you that they find these practices as abhorrent as I do and would have no problem in reporting them to the police.